[91504] in tlhIngan-Hol
[Tlhingan-hol] {X net Y} vs. {X 'e' Y-lu'}
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (De'vID jonpIn)
Sun Jan 1 15:43:13 2012
In-Reply-To: <CA+7zAmM-z1e5svogrreadeEtrX8xarCuPg67yPYfvtLewx-cFw@mail.gmail.com>
Date: Sun, 1 Jan 2012 21:42:59 +0100
From: "De'vID jonpIn" <de.vid.jonpin@gmail.com>
To: KLI <tlhingan-hol@kli.org>
Errors-To: tlhingan-hol-bounces@stodi.digitalkingdom.org
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WARNING: Speculation about grammar. Avoid if that's not your {Dargh
HIvje'}.
Because MO uses both {X net Y} and {X 'e' Y-lu'} in Klingon Monopoly, and
there aren't that many sentences, I'm not convinced that the use of {X 'e'
Y-lu'} is an error.
Here are the sentences from Klingon Monopoly of the form {X 'e' Y-lu'}:
{Qang QanmeH yan 'ISletlh Damuv 'e' wIvlu'.}
"You are chosen to serve on the Yan-Isleth and protect the Chancellor."
{DIvI' rojmab qep ghanglu' 'e' nIDlu', 'ach taH qep.}
"Despite efforts to halt them, peace talks with Federation continue."
Here are the sentences from Klingon Monopoly of the form {X net Y}:
{Duj ghajchugh pagh, beylI'vo' 'oH Daje' net chaw'.}
{HoSHal ghajchugh pagh, beylI'vo' 'oH Daje' net chaw'.}
Both of these are translated as "If unowned, you may buy it from the Bank."
In an earlier thread ("Klingon Monopoly: another card"), I speculated that
{X net Y} and {X 'e' Y-lu'} have slightly different meanings. Namely, {X
net Y} implies no relationship between the indefinite subjects of the verbs
{X} and {Y}, whereas {X 'e' Y-lu'} implies that the subject of {X} is the
subject of {Y} (the object of {Y-lu'}). And in particular, {W-lu' 'e'
Y-lu'} implies that {W-lu'} and {Y-lu'} share the same indefinite subject.
That is, I think {Damuv 'e' wIvlu'} means "you are chosen to join" (similar
to {Damuv; SoH DawIvlu'}, whereas {Damuv net wIv} means "it is chosen, you
join" (similar to {Damuv; 'oH wIvlu'}).
By the same reasoning, I also think that {ghanglu' 'e' nIDlu'} implies that
the indefinite subject of both verbs are the same (i.e,. "someone tried to
end it prematurely, someone tried that someone -- the same person -- end it
prematurely"), whereas {ghanglu' net nID} means "it is tried that someone
end it prematurely, someone tried that someone (possibly someone else) end
it prematurely". I think this is more clear in the two sentences from TKW
p.125.
As for {Daje' net chaw'}, it needs to be {net} because the object of
{chaw'} is the action being permitted. *{Daje' 'e' chaw'lu'} is like
*{Daje'; SoH chaw'lu'}, but this isn't how {chaw'} works.
Does anyone else see this difference between the {X net Y} and {X 'e'
Y-lu'} sentences, or am I imagining things? Is my speculation contradicted
by any canon?
--
De'vID
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<p>WARNING: Speculation about grammar.=A0 Avoid if that's not your {Dar=
gh HIvje'}.</p>
<p>Because MO uses both {X net Y} and {X 'e' Y-lu'} in Klingon =
Monopoly, and there aren't that many sentences, I'm not convinced t=
hat the use of {X 'e' Y-lu'} is an error.</p>
<p>Here are the sentences from Klingon Monopoly of the form {X 'e' =
Y-lu'}:</p>
<p>{Qang QanmeH yan 'ISletlh Damuv 'e' wIvlu'.}<br>
"You are chosen to serve on the Yan-Isleth and protect the Chancellor.=
"</p>
<p>{DIvI' rojmab qep ghanglu' 'e' nIDlu', 'ach taH =
qep.}<br>
"Despite efforts to halt them, peace talks with Federation continue.&q=
uot;</p>
<p>Here are the sentences from Klingon Monopoly of the form {X net Y}:</p>
<p>{Duj ghajchugh pagh, beylI'vo' 'oH Daje' net chaw'.}=
<br>
{HoSHal ghajchugh pagh, beylI'vo' 'oH Daje' net chaw'.}=
<br>
Both of these are translated as "If unowned, you may buy it from the B=
ank."</p>
<p>In an earlier thread ("Klingon Monopoly: another card"), I spe=
culated that {X net Y} and {X 'e' Y-lu'} have slightly differen=
t meanings.=A0 Namely, {X net Y} implies no relationship between the indefi=
nite subjects of the verbs {X} and {Y}, whereas {X 'e' Y-lu'} i=
mplies that the subject of {X} is the subject of {Y} (the object of {Y-lu&#=
39;}).=A0 And in particular, {W-lu' 'e' Y-lu'} implies that=
{W-lu'} and {Y-lu'} share the same indefinite subject.</p>
<p>That is, I think {Damuv 'e' wIvlu'} means "you are chos=
en to join" (similar to {Damuv; SoH DawIvlu'}, whereas {Damuv net =
wIv} means "it is chosen, you join" (similar to {Damuv; 'oH w=
Ivlu'}).</p>
<p>By the same reasoning, I also think that {ghanglu' 'e' nIDlu=
'} implies that the indefinite subject of both verbs are the same (i.e,=
. "someone tried to end it prematurely, someone tried that someone -- =
the same person -- end it prematurely"), whereas {ghanglu' net nID=
} means "it is tried that someone end it prematurely, someone tried th=
at someone (possibly someone else) end it prematurely".=A0 I think thi=
s is more clear in the two sentences from TKW p.125.</p>
<p>As for {Daje' net chaw'}, it needs to be {net} because the objec=
t of {chaw'} is the action being permitted.=A0 *{Daje' 'e' =
chaw'lu'} is like *{Daje'; SoH chaw'lu'}, but this isn&=
#39;t how {chaw'} works.</p>
<p>Does anyone else see this difference between the {X net Y} and {X 'e=
' Y-lu'} sentences, or am I imagining things?=A0 Is my speculation =
contradicted by any canon?</p>
<p>--<br>
De'vID</p>
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