[90508] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [Tlhingan-hol] Beginner Story: nuq bop bom 'ay''a' wej
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (lojmIt tI'wI' nuv)
Sat Nov 5 14:24:45 2011
From: "lojmIt tI'wI' nuv" <lojmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.com>
Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2011 14:24:17 -0400
In-Reply-To: <5CF6C87B-7EC3-4163-8B38-D59C8E067EEF@alcaco.net>
To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org
Errors-To: tlhingan-hol-bounces@stodi.digitalkingdom.org
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I'm with ghunchu'wI' and Sustel on this one.
The most awkward part of dealing with the Klingon language is that Marc =
Okrand, THE authority on the language... has not really spoken it all =
that well for most of the history of the language. There are a lot of =
mistakes. Most of the time, his examples are of good Klingon, but the =
number of errors comes close to the number of insightful, new bits about =
the language that he gives us. Many of the mistakes become canon and we =
have to treat them like they aren't mistakes.
Ever wonder why {neH} doesn't take {'e'} like all the other verbs used =
in Sentence-As-Object constructions? Ever wonder why the second verb in =
Sentence-As-Object constructions never takes a Type 7 suffix? These =
rules are based on errors Okrand noticed that he had made after they =
became canon. The rules make his errors in those cases the correct way =
to speak Klingon. But Okrand never made it a rule that you shouldn't use =
{lu-} in {lutu'lu'}. He just goofed and didn't catch it. It happens. =
Deal with it.
In general, we have to decide what to politely ignore and what to take =
seriously. On this particular issue (Do we use {lutu'lu'} when the =
direct object is plural?), we've been through this a bunch of times. The =
consensus tends to be, that the right way to say it is {lutu'lu'}, but =
forgetting the opening {lu-} is a common, tolerable mistake.
Think of it as "ain't" vs. "isn't". While I know it isn't right, I ain't =
giving you a hard time if you say it wrong. That doesn't make your error =
the correct way to say it. {lutu'lu'} simply is the right way to say it. =
It's not old-fashioned and on its way out. It's not a hypercorrection. =
It is the gold standard. If you wish to speak proper Klingon, don't =
forget the {lu-}.
If you screw up and omit the {lu-}, nobody is going to give you a hard =
time about it. There is no {lu-} for he X, she X, it X, they X, he X =
him, he X her, he X it, he X them, she X him, she X her, she X it, she X =
them, it X him, it X her, it X it, it X them, but there is a {lu-} for =
they X him, they X her, and they X it. It's the easiest part of the =
prefix chart to get wrong. We all do it at some point in our learning =
the language. Even Okrand.
But being a common error doesn't make it right. It especially does not =
make it preferable.
lojmIt tI'wI' nuv
lojmIttI7wI7nuv@gmail.com
On Nov 5, 2011, at 11:12 AM, ghunchu'wI' 'utlh wrote:
> On Nov 5, 2011, at 4:40 AM, Wiechu <ddanecki@gmail.com> wrote:
>=20
>> However in light of this, how do you explain example from TKD 4.2.5 { =
naDev puqpu' tu'lu' } ?
>=20
> *I* explain it as an error.
>=20
> There are other obvious errors in TKD, including {lujpu' jIH} on page =
29 and {yIHaghqu'} "study him/her well" on page 48.
>=20
> -- ghunchu'wI'=20
> _______________________________________________
> Tlhingan-hol mailing list
> Tlhingan-hol@stodi.digitalkingdom.org
> http://stodi.digitalkingdom.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol
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<html><head></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; =
"><div>I'm with ghunchu'wI' and Sustel on this =
one.</div><div><br></div><div>The most awkward part of dealing with the =
Klingon language is that Marc Okrand, THE authority on the language... =
has not really spoken it all that well for most of the history of the =
language. There are a lot of mistakes. Most of the time, his examples =
are of good Klingon, but the number of errors comes close to the number =
of insightful, new bits about the language that he gives us. Many of the =
mistakes become canon and we have to treat them like they aren't =
mistakes.</div><div><br></div><div>Ever wonder why {neH} doesn't take =
{'e'} like all the other verbs used in Sentence-As-Object constructions? =
Ever wonder why the second verb in Sentence-As-Object constructions =
never takes a Type 7 suffix? These rules are based on errors Okrand =
noticed that he had made after they became canon. The rules make his =
errors in those cases the correct way to speak Klingon. But Okrand never =
made it a rule that you shouldn't use {lu-} in {lutu'lu'}. He just =
goofed and didn't catch it. It happens. Deal with =
it.</div><div><br></div><div>In general, we have to decide what to =
politely ignore and what to take seriously. On this particular issue (Do =
we use {lutu'lu'} when the direct object is plural?), we've been through =
this a bunch of times. The consensus tends to be, that the right way to =
say it is {lutu'lu'}, but forgetting the opening {lu-} is a common, =
tolerable mistake.</div><div><br></div><div>Think of it as "ain't" vs. =
"isn't". While I know it isn't right, I ain't giving you a hard time if =
you say it wrong. That doesn't make your error the correct way to say =
it. {lutu'lu'} simply is the right way to say it. It's not old-fashioned =
and on its way out. It's not a hypercorrection. It is the gold standard. =
If you wish to speak proper Klingon, don't forget the =
{lu-}.</div><div><br></div><div>If you screw up and omit the {lu-}, =
nobody is going to give you a hard time about it. There is no {lu-} for =
he X, she X, it X, they X, he X him, he X her, he X it, he X them, she X =
him, she X her, she X it, she X them, it X him, it X her, it X it, it X =
them, but there is a {lu-} for they X him, they X her, and they X it. =
It's the easiest part of the prefix chart to get wrong. We all do it at =
some point in our learning the language. Even =
Okrand.</div><div><br></div><div>But being a common error doesn't make =
it right. It especially does not make it preferable.</div><br><div =
apple-content-edited=3D"true">
<span class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-collapse: separate; =
color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; =
font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: auto; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: =
auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-size: medium; "><div>lojmIt =
tI'wI' nuv</div><div><a =
href=3D"mailto:lojmIttI7wI7nuv@gmail.com">lojmIttI7wI7nuv@gmail.com</a></d=
iv><div><br></div></span><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline">
</div>
<br><div><div>On Nov 5, 2011, at 11:12 AM, ghunchu'wI' 'utlh =
wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><div bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF"><div>On Nov 5, 2011, at 4:40 AM, =
Wiechu <<a =
href=3D"mailto:ddanecki@gmail.com">ddanecki@gmail.com</a>> =
wrote:<br><br></div><div></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div><span =
class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"">However in light of this, how do =
you explain example from TKD 4.2.5 { naDev puqpu' tu'lu' } =
?</span></div></div></blockquote><br><div><span class=3D"Apple-style-span"=
style=3D"color: rgb(0, 35, 163);">*I* explain it as an =
error.</span></div><div><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"color: =
rgb(0, 35, 163);"><br></span></div><div><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" =
style=3D"color: rgb(0, 35, 163);">There are other obvious errors in TKD, =
including {lujpu' jIH} on page 29 and {yIHaghqu'} "study him/her well" =
on page 48.</span></div><div><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" =
style=3D"color: rgb(0, 35, 163);"><br></span></div><div><span =
class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"color: rgb(0, 35, 163);">-- =
ghunchu'wI' </span></div></div>______________________________________=
_________<br>Tlhingan-hol mailing list<br><a =
href=3D"mailto:Tlhingan-hol@stodi.digitalkingdom.org">Tlhingan-hol@stodi.d=
igitalkingdom.org</a><br>http://stodi.digitalkingdom.org/mailman/listinfo/=
tlhingan-hol<br></blockquote></div><br></body></html>=
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