[90503] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [Tlhingan-hol] Beginner Story: nuq bop bom 'ay''a' wej
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Wiechu)
Sat Nov 5 04:41:23 2011
In-Reply-To: <7A83B143-AA14-4F91-AA9F-D0DA03E86D18@gmail.com>
From: Wiechu <ddanecki@gmail.com>
Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2011 09:40:32 +0100
To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org
Errors-To: tlhingan-hol-bounces@stodi.digitalkingdom.org
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Yes, you're right, I did read TKD section about { -lu' } and I think I
understand it already. { lu- } when used in conjunction with {- lu' } means
that singular unspecified third-person subject does something to plural
specified third-person object as you have said.
However in light of this, how do you explain example from TKD 4.2.5 { naDev
puqpu' tu'lu' } ?
--
Sincerely,
Daniel Danecki (Wiechu)
2011/11/5 lojmIt tI'wI'nuv <lojmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.com>
> As a person relatively new to Klingon, you don't understand what the -lu'
> suffix does to verb prefixes. To translate "One sees me," or "I am seen,"
> the translation is {vIleghlu'}, not {*muleghlu'}. So, {luleghlu'} does not
> mean that an unspecified plural entity sees him/her/it. It means that an
> unspecified singular entity sees them.
>
> Trust me on this. Look at TKD again in the section on {-lu'}. I remember
> arguing about this with HoD Qanqor nearly two decades ago. I was taking
> your side in this argument. I lost.
>
> It was the beginning of my deepest plunge into learning the language. I
> hope you enjoy a similar plunge soon.
>
> lojmIt tI'wI'nuv
>
>
>
> Sent from my iPod
>
> On Nov 4, 2011, at 6:54 AM, Wiechu <ddanecki@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> That would actually justify use of { lu- } in { pa'Daq tlhInganpu'
> lutu'lu' } as prefix is referring to object in this particular case. And
> that means Qov didn't make error after all. However the example in TKD says
> { naDev puqpu' tu'lu' }. And as { puqpu' } which is an object of that
> sentence is plural, shouldn't there be { lu- } attached to { tu'lu' } ?
>
> SanuQchugh jIQoS
>
> --
> Sincerely,
>
> Daniel Danecki (Wiechu)
>
>
>
>> > It depends on how you understand verb "are". In sentence
>> > "There are Klingons in the room" I assumed (perhaps I'm
>> > incorrect) that Klingons are the subject because "they are".
>>
>> Ah, alright; I assumed you were referring to the Klingon sentence.
>>
>> > However according to TKD {lu-} does not mark a plural,
>> > third-person object. It marks plural, third-person subject
>> > with singular, third-person subject. Am I right ?
>>
>> Not when the -lu' suffix is applied; then it marks a
>> generic/unknown/unspecified subject and a plural, third-person object.
>
>
>> I can recommend using the table on this page as a reference:
>> www.klingonska.org/dict/tables.html
>>
>> --
>> Sincerely,
>>
>> Daniel Danecki (Wiechu)
>>
>>
>> 2011/11/4 Felix Malmenbeck <felixm@kth.se<mailto:felixm@kth.se>>
>> Just want to notify you that I believe you're mixing up the words
>> "subject" and "object": The subject is that which does/is something, and
>> the object is that to which something is done. The -lu' suffix marks an
>> unknown/unspecified/general subject, and when used together with the lu-
>> prefix marks a plural, third-person object.
>>
>> ________________________________________
>> From: Wiechu [ddanecki@gmail.com<mailto:ddanecki@gmail.com>]
>> Sent: Friday, November 04, 2011 07:45
>> To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org<mailto:tlhingan-hol@kli.org>
>> Subject: Re: [Tlhingan-hol] Beginner Story: nuq bop bom 'ay''a' wej
>>
>> Hi!
>>
>> I'm sorry if I'm wrong in any way. I'm the beginner who was asking about
>> "lutu'lu'".
>>
>> In my opinion this error comes from treating tu'lu' as english "There
>> is". So let's assume it is for a second. To say "there are people in the
>> room", it's logical to add lu- at the beginning so the subject was plural
>> as in this case the subject would be a person or persons who are in the
>> room... However even in this case it isn't 100% correct to use lu- because
>> there's no object in "there are klingons in the room" sentence, therefore
>> there's no need to lu-, "0" instead should be used for <they> -> <none>.
>> pa'Daq tlhInganpu' tu'lu' should be enough.
>>
>> Now if you look at the tu'lu' in the Klingon way (As explained in TKD),
>> tu' means to observe, find. lu' means that there's indefinite subject and
>> the object is a person / persons who are being observed.
>>
>> pa'Daq tlhInganpu' tu'lu' someone observes klingons in the room. If you
>> add lu- at the beginnig, the subject is plural so more than one person is
>> observing (what doesn't really change anything, besides the fact that
>> there's more people who can confirm that klingons are in the room) but
>> what's more important with lu- you change object to singular him/her/it.
>> And you can't really use it with tlhInganpu' anymore because it's an error.
>>
>> --
>> Sincerely,
>>
>> Daniel Danecki (Wiechu)
>>
>>
>> 2011/11/4 Robyn Stewart <robyn@flyingstart.ca<mailto:robyn@flyingstart.ca
>> ><mailto:robyn@flyingstart.ca<mailto:robyn@flyingstart.ca>>>
>> I think I've been convinced by the ubiquity of the so-called error,
>> including the example illustrating the rule, that it is not an error, that
>> it is the way the language it. It's exactly analogous to the French ce
>> n'est pas being used were ce ne sont pas should be, and the same thing
>> isn't unknown in English, "There's plenty of them around here." "There's
>> five of them." "There's" is just easier to say than "There'r" I guess.
>>
>> You know how when Germans learn English [hi Germans!] they use rules that
>> the two languages once shared and produce verb forms that while not
>> actually ungrammatical in English are marked because no native English
>> speaker has used them for over a hundred years? I am now convinced that
>> lutu'lu' is a hypercorrection like that. I might even stop using it. At
>> least in dialogue.
>>
>>
>> We've discussed this in the past. There are a couple of possible
>> explanations. One is that it's a fixed expression: just add tu'lu' to mean
>> "there is/are." Another is that it's an example of the phenomenon described
>> in KGT: "Common Errors: The Case of lu-."
>>
>> I have a vague notion that lutu'lu' has appeared somewhere, but it's not
>> in TKD or KGT, the only materials I have handy and searchable right now.
>>
>> --
>> SuStel
>> http://www.trimboli.name/
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Tlhingan-hol mailing list
>> Tlhingan-hol@stodi.digitalkingdom.org<mailto:
>> Tlhingan-hol@stodi.digitalkingdom.org><mailto:
>> Tlhingan-hol@stodi.digitalkingdom.org<mailto:
>> Tlhingan-hol@stodi.digitalkingdom.org>>
>> http://stodi.digitalkingdom.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Tlhingan-hol mailing list
>> Tlhingan-hol@stodi.digitalkingdom.org<mailto:
>> Tlhingan-hol@stodi.digitalkingdom.org><mailto:
>> Tlhingan-hol@stodi.digitalkingdom.org<mailto:
>> Tlhingan-hol@stodi.digitalkingdom.org>>
>> http://stodi.digitalkingdom.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol
>>
>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Tlhingan-hol mailing list
> Tlhingan-hol@stodi.digitalkingdom.org
> http://stodi.digitalkingdom.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> Tlhingan-hol@stodi.digitalkingdom.org
> http://stodi.digitalkingdom.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol
>
>
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<div>Yes, you're right, I did read TKD section about { -lu' } and I=
think I understand it already. { lu- } when used in conjunction with {- lu=
' } means that singular unspecified third-person subject does something=
to plural specified third-person object as you have said.</div>
<div><br></div><div>However in light of this, how do you explain example fr=
om TKD 4.2.5 {=A0naDev puqpu' tu'lu' } ?</div><div><br></div><d=
iv><span style=3D"border-collapse:collapse;color:rgb(136, 136, 136)">--<br>
Sincerely,<br><br>Daniel Danecki (Wiechu)</span><br>
<br></div><div><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">2011/11/5 lojmIt tI'w=
I'nuv <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:lojmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.com=
">lojmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.com</a>></span><br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_qu=
ote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex=
;">
<div bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF"><div>As a person relatively new to Klingon, you do=
n't understand what the -lu' suffix does to verb prefixes. To trans=
late "One sees me," or "I am seen," the translation is =
{vIleghlu'}, not {*muleghlu'}. So, {luleghlu'} does not mean th=
at an unspecified plural entity sees him/her/it. It means that an unspecifi=
ed singular entity sees them.=A0</div>
<div><br></div><div>Trust me on this. Look at TKD again in the section on {=
-lu'}. I remember arguing about this with HoD Qanqor nearly two decades=
ago. I was taking your side in this argument. I lost.</div><div><br></div>
<div>It was the beginning of my deepest plunge into learning the language. =
I hope you enjoy a similar plunge soon.=A0</div><div><br></div><div>lojmIt =
tI'wI'nuv<br><br><div><br></div><div><br></div>Sent from my iPod</d=
iv>
<div><div></div><div class=3D"h5"><div><br>On Nov 4, 2011, at 6:54 AM, Wiec=
hu <<a href=3D"mailto:ddanecki@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">ddanecki@gma=
il.com</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><div></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><di=
v><div class=3D"gmail_quote">
<div><div>That would actually justify use of { lu- } in { pa'Daq tlhIng=
anpu' lutu'lu' } as prefix is referring to object in this parti=
cular case. And that means Qov didn't make error after all. However the=
example in TKD says { naDev puqpu' tu'lu' }. And as { puqpu=
9; } which is an object of that sentence is plural, shouldn't there be =
{ lu- } attached to { tu'lu' } ?</div>
<div><br></div><div>SanuQchugh jIQoS</div><div><br></div><div><span style=
=3D"border-collapse:collapse;color:rgb(136, 136, 136)">--<br>Sincerely,<br>=
<br>Daniel Danecki (Wiechu)</span></div></div><div><br></div><div>=A0</div>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div>> It depends on how you understand v=
erb "are". In sentence<br>
> "There are Klingons in the room" I assumed (perhaps I'm<=
br>
> incorrect) that Klingons are the subject because "they are".=
<br>
<br>
</div>Ah, alright; I assumed you were referring to the Klingon sentence.<br=
>
<div><br>
> However according to TKD {lu-} does not mark a plural,<br>
> third-person object. It marks plural, third-person subject<br>
> with singular, third-person subject. Am I right ?<br>
<br>
</div>Not when the -lu' suffix is applied; then it marks a generic/unkn=
own/unspecified subject and a plural, third-person object.</blockquote><blo=
ckquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #c=
cc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<br>
I can recommend using the table on this page as a reference: <a href=3D"htt=
p://www.klingonska.org/dict/tables.html" target=3D"_blank">www.klingonska.o=
rg/dict/tables.html</a><br>
<div><br>
--<br>
Sincerely,<br>
<br>
Daniel Danecki (Wiechu)<br>
<br>
<br>
</div>2011/11/4 Felix Malmenbeck <<a href=3D"mailto:felixm@kth.se" targe=
t=3D"_blank">felixm@kth.se</a><mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:felixm@kth.se" t=
arget=3D"_blank">felixm@kth.se</a>>><br>
<div>Just want to notify you that I believe you're mixing up the words =
"subject" and "object": The subject is that which does/=
is something, and the object is that to which something is done. The -lu=
9; suffix marks an unknown/unspecified/general subject, and when used toget=
her with the lu- prefix marks a plural, third-person object.<br>
<br>
________________________________________<br>
</div>From: Wiechu [<a href=3D"mailto:ddanecki@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank"=
>ddanecki@gmail.com</a><mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:ddanecki@gmail.com" tar=
get=3D"_blank">ddanecki@gmail.com</a>>]<br>
<div>Sent: Friday, November 04, 2011 07:45<br>
</div>To: <a href=3D"mailto:tlhingan-hol@kli.org" target=3D"_blank">tlhinga=
n-hol@kli.org</a><mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:tlhingan-hol@kli.org" target=
=3D"_blank">tlhingan-hol@kli.org</a>><br>
<div>Subject: Re: [Tlhingan-hol] Beginner Story: nuq bop bom 'ay'&#=
39;a' wej<br>
<br>
Hi!<br>
<br>
I'm sorry if I'm wrong in any way. I'm the beginner who was ask=
ing about "lutu'lu'".<br>
<br>
In my opinion this error comes from treating tu'lu' as english &quo=
t;There is". So let's assume it is for a second. To say "ther=
e are people in the room", it's logical to add lu- at the beginnin=
g so the subject was plural as in this case the subject would be a person o=
r persons who are in the room... However even in this case it isn't 100=
% correct to use lu- because there's no object in "there are kling=
ons in the room" sentence, therefore there's no need to lu-, "=
;0" instead should be used for <they> -> <none>. =A0pa&=
#39;Daq tlhInganpu' tu'lu' should be enough.<br>
<br>
Now if you look at the tu'lu' in the Klingon way (As explained in T=
KD), tu' means to observe, find. lu' means that there's indefin=
ite subject and the object is a person / persons who are being observed.<br=
>
<br>
pa'Daq tlhInganpu' tu'lu' someone observes klingons in the =
room. If you add lu- at the beginnig, the subject is plural so more than on=
e person is observing (what doesn't really change anything, besides the=
fact that there's more people who can confirm that klingons are in the=
room) but what's more important with lu- you change object to singular=
him/her/it. And you can't really use it with tlhInganpu' anymore b=
ecause it's an error.<br>
<br>
--<br>
Sincerely,<br>
<br>
Daniel Danecki (Wiechu)<br>
<br>
<br>
</div>2011/11/4 Robyn Stewart <<a href=3D"mailto:robyn@flyingstart.ca" t=
arget=3D"_blank">robyn@flyingstart.ca</a><mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:robyn=
@flyingstart.ca" target=3D"_blank">robyn@flyingstart.ca</a>><mailto:<=
a href=3D"mailto:robyn@flyingstart.ca" target=3D"_blank">robyn@flyingstart.=
ca</a><mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:robyn@flyingstart.ca" target=3D"_blank">=
robyn@flyingstart.ca</a>>>><br>
<div>I think I've been convinced by the ubiquity of the so-called error=
, including the example illustrating the rule, that it is not an error, tha=
t it is the way the language it. It's exactly analogous to the French c=
e n'est pas being used were ce ne sont pas should be, and the same thin=
g isn't unknown in English, "There's plenty of them around her=
e." =A0"There's five of them." =A0"There's"=
; is just easier to say than "There'r" =A0I guess.<br>
<br>
You know how when Germans learn English [hi Germans!] they use rules that t=
he two languages once shared and produce verb forms that while not actually=
ungrammatical in English are marked because no native English speaker has =
used them for over a hundred years? =A0I am now convinced that lutu'lu&=
#39; is a hypercorrection like that. I might even stop using it. At least i=
n dialogue.<br>
<br>
<br>
We've discussed this in the past. There are a couple of possible explan=
ations. One is that it's a fixed expression: just add tu'lu' to=
mean "there is/are." Another is that it's an example of the =
phenomenon described in KGT: "Common Errors: The Case of lu-."<br=
>
<br>
I have a vague notion that lutu'lu' has appeared somewhere, but it&=
#39;s not in TKD or KGT, the only materials I have handy and searchable rig=
ht now.<br>
<br>
--<br>
SuStel<br>
<a href=3D"http://www.trimboli.name/" target=3D"_blank">http://www.trimboli=
.name/</a><br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
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g</a><mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:Tlhingan-hol@stodi.digitalkingdom.org" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">Tlhingan-hol@stodi.digitalkingdom.org</a>>><br>
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ol" target=3D"_blank">http://stodi.digitalkingdom.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhi=
ngan-hol</a><br>
<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
Tlhingan-hol mailing list<br>
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<br>
<br>
</blockquote></div><br>
</div></blockquote></div></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div><div></d=
iv><div class=3D"h5"><span>_______________________________________________<=
/span><br><span>Tlhingan-hol mailing list</span><br><span><a href=3D"mailto=
:Tlhingan-hol@stodi.digitalkingdom.org" target=3D"_blank">Tlhingan-hol@stod=
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fo/tlhingan-hol" target=3D"_blank">http://stodi.digitalkingdom.org/mailman/=
listinfo/tlhingan-hol</a></span><br></div></blockquote></div><br>__________=
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