[90500] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [Tlhingan-hol] Beginner Story: nuq bop bom 'ay''a' wej
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (lojmIt tI'wI'nuv)
Sat Nov 5 00:29:14 2011
From: lojmIt tI'wI'nuv <lojmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.com>
In-Reply-To: <CAGBhE_gwGhKwvLBGtpLN0k-9m=yAdd7tXsGw--RTGPp6AicH4Q@mail.gmail.com>
Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2011 00:28:41 -0400
To: "tlhingan-hol@kli.org" <tlhingan-hol@kli.org>
Errors-To: tlhingan-hol-bounces@stodi.digitalkingdom.org
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As a person relatively new to Klingon, you don't understand what the -lu' su=
ffix does to verb prefixes. To translate "One sees me," or "I am seen," the t=
ranslation is {vIleghlu'}, not {*muleghlu'}. So, {luleghlu'} does not mean t=
hat an unspecified plural entity sees him/her/it. It means that an unspecifi=
ed singular entity sees them.=20
Trust me on this. Look at TKD again in the section on {-lu'}. I remember arg=
uing about this with HoD Qanqor nearly two decades ago. I was taking your si=
de in this argument. I lost.
It was the beginning of my deepest plunge into learning the language. I hope=
you enjoy a similar plunge soon.=20
lojmIt tI'wI'nuv
Sent from my iPod
On Nov 4, 2011, at 6:54 AM, Wiechu <ddanecki@gmail.com> wrote:
> That would actually justify use of { lu- } in { pa'Daq tlhInganpu' lutu'lu=
' } as prefix is referring to object in this particular case. And that means=
Qov didn't make error after all. However the example in TKD says { naDev pu=
qpu' tu'lu' }. And as { puqpu' } which is an object of that sentence is plur=
al, shouldn't there be { lu- } attached to { tu'lu' } ?
>=20
> SanuQchugh jIQoS
>=20
> --
> Sincerely,
>=20
> Daniel Danecki (Wiechu)
>=20
> =20
> > It depends on how you understand verb "are". In sentence
> > "There are Klingons in the room" I assumed (perhaps I'm
> > incorrect) that Klingons are the subject because "they are".
>=20
> Ah, alright; I assumed you were referring to the Klingon sentence.
>=20
> > However according to TKD {lu-} does not mark a plural,
> > third-person object. It marks plural, third-person subject
> > with singular, third-person subject. Am I right ?
>=20
> Not when the -lu' suffix is applied; then it marks a generic/unknown/unspe=
cified subject and a plural, third-person object.
>=20
> I can recommend using the table on this page as a reference: www.klingonsk=
a.org/dict/tables.html
>=20
> --
> Sincerely,
>=20
> Daniel Danecki (Wiechu)
>=20
>=20
> 2011/11/4 Felix Malmenbeck <felixm@kth.se<mailto:felixm@kth.se>>
> Just want to notify you that I believe you're mixing up the words "subject=
" and "object": The subject is that which does/is something, and the object i=
s that to which something is done. The -lu' suffix marks an unknown/unspecif=
ied/general subject, and when used together with the lu- prefix marks a plur=
al, third-person object.
>=20
> ________________________________________
> From: Wiechu [ddanecki@gmail.com<mailto:ddanecki@gmail.com>]
> Sent: Friday, November 04, 2011 07:45
> To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org<mailto:tlhingan-hol@kli.org>
> Subject: Re: [Tlhingan-hol] Beginner Story: nuq bop bom 'ay''a' wej
>=20
> Hi!
>=20
> I'm sorry if I'm wrong in any way. I'm the beginner who was asking about "=
lutu'lu'".
>=20
> In my opinion this error comes from treating tu'lu' as english "There is".=
So let's assume it is for a second. To say "there are people in the room", i=
t's logical to add lu- at the beginning so the subject was plural as in this=
case the subject would be a person or persons who are in the room... Howeve=
r even in this case it isn't 100% correct to use lu- because there's no obje=
ct in "there are klingons in the room" sentence, therefore there's no need t=
o lu-, "0" instead should be used for <they> -> <none>. pa'Daq tlhInganpu' t=
u'lu' should be enough.
>=20
> Now if you look at the tu'lu' in the Klingon way (As explained in TKD), tu=
' means to observe, find. lu' means that there's indefinite subject and the o=
bject is a person / persons who are being observed.
>=20
> pa'Daq tlhInganpu' tu'lu' someone observes klingons in the room. If you ad=
d lu- at the beginnig, the subject is plural so more than one person is obse=
rving (what doesn't really change anything, besides the fact that there's mo=
re people who can confirm that klingons are in the room) but what's more imp=
ortant with lu- you change object to singular him/her/it. And you can't real=
ly use it with tlhInganpu' anymore because it's an error.
>=20
> --
> Sincerely,
>=20
> Daniel Danecki (Wiechu)
>=20
>=20
> 2011/11/4 Robyn Stewart <robyn@flyingstart.ca<mailto:robyn@flyingstart.ca>=
<mailto:robyn@flyingstart.ca<mailto:robyn@flyingstart.ca>>>
> I think I've been convinced by the ubiquity of the so-called error, includ=
ing the example illustrating the rule, that it is not an error, that it is t=
he way the language it. It's exactly analogous to the French ce n'est pas be=
ing used were ce ne sont pas should be, and the same thing isn't unknown in E=
nglish, "There's plenty of them around here." "There's five of them." "The=
re's" is just easier to say than "There'r" I guess.
>=20
> You know how when Germans learn English [hi Germans!] they use rules that t=
he two languages once shared and produce verb forms that while not actually u=
ngrammatical in English are marked because no native English speaker has use=
d them for over a hundred years? I am now convinced that lutu'lu' is a hype=
rcorrection like that. I might even stop using it. At least in dialogue.
>=20
>=20
> We've discussed this in the past. There are a couple of possible explanati=
ons. One is that it's a fixed expression: just add tu'lu' to mean "there is/=
are." Another is that it's an example of the phenomenon described in KGT: "C=
ommon Errors: The Case of lu-."
>=20
> I have a vague notion that lutu'lu' has appeared somewhere, but it's not i=
n TKD or KGT, the only materials I have handy and searchable right now.
>=20
> --
> SuStel
> http://www.trimboli.name/
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Tlhingan-hol mailing list
> Tlhingan-hol@stodi.digitalkingdom.org<mailto:Tlhingan-hol@stodi.digitalkin=
gdom.org><mailto:Tlhingan-hol@stodi.digitalkingdom.org<mailto:Tlhingan-hol@s=
todi.digitalkingdom.org>>
> http://stodi.digitalkingdom.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Tlhingan-hol mailing list
> Tlhingan-hol@stodi.digitalkingdom.org<mailto:Tlhingan-hol@stodi.digitalkin=
gdom.org><mailto:Tlhingan-hol@stodi.digitalkingdom.org<mailto:Tlhingan-hol@s=
todi.digitalkingdom.org>>
> http://stodi.digitalkingdom.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol
>=20
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Tlhingan-hol mailing list
> Tlhingan-hol@stodi.digitalkingdom.org
> http://stodi.digitalkingdom.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol
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charset=utf-8
<html><head></head><body bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF"><div>As a person relatively new=
to Klingon, you don't understand what the -lu' suffix does to verb prefixes=
. To translate "One sees me," or "I am seen," the translation is {vIleghlu'}=
, not {*muleghlu'}. So, {luleghlu'} does not mean that an unspecified plural=
entity sees him/her/it. It means that an unspecified singular entity sees t=
hem. </div><div><br></div><div>Trust me on this. Look at TKD again in t=
he section on {-lu'}. I remember arguing about this with HoD Qanqor nearly t=
wo decades ago. I was taking your side in this argument. I lost.</div><div><=
br></div><div>It was the beginning of my deepest plunge into learning the la=
nguage. I hope you enjoy a similar plunge soon. </div><div><br></div><d=
iv>lojmIt tI'wI'nuv<br><br><div><br></div><div><br class=3D"webkit-block-pla=
ceholder"></div>Sent from my iPod</div><div><br>On Nov 4, 2011, at 6:54 AM, W=
iechu <<a href=3D"mailto:ddanecki@gmail.com">ddanecki@gmail.com</a>> w=
rote:<br><br></div><div></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div class=3D"g=
mail_quote"><div><div>That would actually justify use of { lu- } in { pa'Daq=
tlhInganpu' lutu'lu' } as prefix is referring to object in this particular c=
ase. And that means Qov didn't make error after all. However the example in T=
KD says { naDev puqpu' tu'lu' }. And as { puqpu' } which is an object of tha=
t sentence is plural, shouldn't there be { lu- } attached to { tu'lu' } ?</d=
iv>
<div><br></div><div>SanuQchugh jIQoS</div><div><br></div><div><span style=3D=
"border-collapse: collapse; color: rgb(136, 136, 136); ">--<br>Sincerely,<br=
><br>Daniel Danecki (Wiechu)</span></div></div><div><br></div><div> </d=
iv>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px=
#ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;"><div class=3D"im">> It depends on how you u=
nderstand verb "are". In sentence<br>
> "There are Klingons in the room" I assumed (perhaps I'm<br>
> incorrect) that Klingons are the subject because "they are".<br>
<br>
</div>Ah, alright; I assumed you were referring to the Klingon sentence.<br>=
<div class=3D"im"><br>
> However according to TKD {lu-} does not mark a plural,<br>
> third-person object. It marks plural, third-person subject<br>
> with singular, third-person subject. Am I right ?<br>
<br>
</div>Not when the -lu' suffix is applied; then it marks a generic/unknown/u=
nspecified subject and a plural, third-person object.</blockquote><blockquot=
e class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc soli=
d;padding-left:1ex;">
<br>
I can recommend using the table on this page as a reference: <a href=3D"http=
://www.klingonska.org/dict/tables.html" target=3D"_blank">www.klingonska.org=
/dict/tables.html</a><br>
<div class=3D"im"><br>
--<br>
Sincerely,<br>
<br>
Daniel Danecki (Wiechu)<br>
<br>
<br>
</div>2011/11/4 Felix Malmenbeck <<a href=3D"mailto:felixm@kth.se">felixm=
@kth.se</a><mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:felixm@kth.se">felixm@kth.se</a>>=
><br>
<div class=3D"im">Just want to notify you that I believe you're mixing up th=
e words "subject" and "object": The subject is that which does/is something,=
and the object is that to which something is done. The -lu' suffix marks an=
unknown/unspecified/general subject, and when used together with the lu- pr=
efix marks a plural, third-person object.<br>
<br>
________________________________________<br>
</div>From: Wiechu [<a href=3D"mailto:ddanecki@gmail.com">ddanecki@gmail.com=
</a><mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:ddanecki@gmail.com">ddanecki@gmail.com</a>&=
gt;]<br>
<div class=3D"im">Sent: Friday, November 04, 2011 07:45<br>
</div>To: <a href=3D"mailto:tlhingan-hol@kli.org">tlhingan-hol@kli.org</a>&l=
t;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:tlhingan-hol@kli.org">tlhingan-hol@kli.org</a>>=
;<br>
<div class=3D"im">Subject: Re: [Tlhingan-hol] Beginner Story: nuq bop bom 'a=
y''a' wej<br>
<br>
Hi!<br>
<br>
I'm sorry if I'm wrong in any way. I'm the beginner who was asking about "lu=
tu'lu'".<br>
<br>
In my opinion this error comes from treating tu'lu' as english "There is". S=
o let's assume it is for a second. To say "there are people in the room", it=
's logical to add lu- at the beginning so the subject was plural as in this c=
ase the subject would be a person or persons who are in the room... However e=
ven in this case it isn't 100% correct to use lu- because there's no object i=
n "there are klingons in the room" sentence, therefore there's no need to lu=
-, "0" instead should be used for <they> -> <none>. pa'=
Daq tlhInganpu' tu'lu' should be enough.<br>
<br>
Now if you look at the tu'lu' in the Klingon way (As explained in TKD), tu' m=
eans to observe, find. lu' means that there's indefinite subject and the obj=
ect is a person / persons who are being observed.<br>
<br>
pa'Daq tlhInganpu' tu'lu' someone observes klingons in the room. If you add l=
u- at the beginnig, the subject is plural so more than one person is observi=
ng (what doesn't really change anything, besides the fact that there's more p=
eople who can confirm that klingons are in the room) but what's more importa=
nt with lu- you change object to singular him/her/it. And you can't really u=
se it with tlhInganpu' anymore because it's an error.<br>
<br>
--<br>
Sincerely,<br>
<br>
Daniel Danecki (Wiechu)<br>
<br>
<br>
</div>2011/11/4 Robyn Stewart <<a href=3D"mailto:robyn@flyingstart.ca">ro=
byn@flyingstart.ca</a><mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:robyn@flyingstart.ca">rob=
yn@flyingstart.ca</a>><mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:robyn@flyingstart.ca">=
robyn@flyingstart.ca</a><mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:robyn@flyingstart.ca">r=
obyn@flyingstart.ca</a>>>><br>
<div class=3D"im">I think I've been convinced by the ubiquity of the so-call=
ed error, including the example illustrating the rule, that it is not an err=
or, that it is the way the language it. It's exactly analogous to the French=
ce n'est pas being used were ce ne sont pas should be, and the same thing i=
sn't unknown in English, "There's plenty of them around here." "There'=
s five of them." "There's" is just easier to say than "There'r" =
I guess.<br>
<br>
You know how when Germans learn English [hi Germans!] they use rules that th=
e two languages once shared and produce verb forms that while not actually u=
ngrammatical in English are marked because no native English speaker has use=
d them for over a hundred years? I am now convinced that lutu'lu' is a=
hypercorrection like that. I might even stop using it. At least in dialogue=
.<br>
<br>
<br>
We've discussed this in the past. There are a couple of possible explanation=
s. One is that it's a fixed expression: just add tu'lu' to mean "there is/ar=
e." Another is that it's an example of the phenomenon described in KGT: "Com=
mon Errors: The Case of lu-."<br>
<br>
I have a vague notion that lutu'lu' has appeared somewhere, but it's not in T=
KD or KGT, the only materials I have handy and searchable right now.<br>
<br>
--<br>
SuStel<br>
<a href=3D"http://www.trimboli.name/" target=3D"_blank">http://www.trimboli.=
name/</a><br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
Tlhingan-hol mailing list<br>
</div><a href=3D"mailto:Tlhingan-hol@stodi.digitalkingdom.org">Tlhingan-hol@=
stodi.digitalkingdom.org</a><mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:Tlhingan-hol@stodi.=
digitalkingdom.org">Tlhingan-hol@stodi.digitalkingdom.org</a>><mailto:=
<a href=3D"mailto:Tlhingan-hol@stodi.digitalkingdom.org">Tlhingan-hol@stodi.=
digitalkingdom.org</a><mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:Tlhingan-hol@stodi.digita=
lkingdom.org">Tlhingan-hol@stodi.digitalkingdom.org</a>>><br>
<div class=3D"im"><a href=3D"http://stodi.digitalkingdom.org/mailman/listinf=
o/tlhingan-hol" target=3D"_blank">http://stodi.digitalkingdom.org/mailman/li=
stinfo/tlhingan-hol</a><br>
<br>
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digitalkingdom.org">Tlhingan-hol@stodi.digitalkingdom.org</a>><mailto:=
<a href=3D"mailto:Tlhingan-hol@stodi.digitalkingdom.org">Tlhingan-hol@stodi.=
digitalkingdom.org</a><mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:Tlhingan-hol@stodi.digita=
lkingdom.org">Tlhingan-hol@stodi.digitalkingdom.org</a>>><br>
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rget=3D"_blank">http://stodi.digitalkingdom.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-ho=
l</a><br>
<br>
<br>
</blockquote></div><br>
</div></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><span>____________________=
___________________________</span><br><span>Tlhingan-hol mailing list</span>=
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italkingdom.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol">http://stodi.digitalkingdom.o=
rg/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol</a></span><br></div></blockquote></body></h=
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