[90461] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [Tlhingan-hol] Beginner Story: nuq bop bom 'ay''a' wej
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Wiechu)
Fri Nov 4 02:46:44 2011
In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.2.20111103160800.055fa5e8@flyingstart.ca>
From: Wiechu <ddanecki@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2011 07:45:56 +0100
To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org
Errors-To: tlhingan-hol-bounces@stodi.digitalkingdom.org
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Hi!
I'm sorry if I'm wrong in any way. I'm the beginner who was asking about
"lutu'lu'".
In my opinion this error comes from treating tu'lu' as english "There is".
So let's assume it is for a second. To say "there are people in the room",
it's logical to add lu- at the beginning so the subject was plural as in
this case the subject would be a person or persons who are in the room...
However even in this case it isn't 100% correct to use lu- because there's
no object in "there are klingons in the room" sentence, therefore there's
no need to lu-, "0" instead should be used for <they> -> <none>. pa'Daq
tlhInganpu' tu'lu' should be enough.
Now if you look at the tu'lu' in the Klingon way (As explained in TKD), tu'
means to observe, find. lu' means that there's indefinite subject and the
object is a person / persons who are being observed.
pa'Daq tlhInganpu' tu'lu' someone observes klingons in the room. If you add
lu- at the beginnig, the subject is plural so more than one person is
observing (what doesn't really change anything, besides the fact that
there's more people who can confirm that klingons are in the room) but
what's more important with lu- you change object to singular him/her/it.
And you can't really use it with tlhInganpu' anymore because it's an error.
--
Sincerely,
Daniel Danecki (Wiechu)
2011/11/4 Robyn Stewart <robyn@flyingstart.ca>
> I think I've been convinced by the ubiquity of the so-called error,
> including the example illustrating the rule, that it is not an error, that
> it is the way the language it. It's exactly analogous to the French ce
> n'est pas being used were ce ne sont pas should be, and the same thing
> isn't unknown in English, "There's plenty of them around here." "There's
> five of them." "There's" is just easier to say than "There'r" I guess.
>
> You know how when Germans learn English [hi Germans!] they use rules that
> the two languages once shared and produce verb forms that while not
> actually ungrammatical in English are marked because no native English
> speaker has used them for over a hundred years? I am now convinced that
> lutu'lu' is a hypercorrection like that. I might even stop using it. At
> least in dialogue.
>
>
> We've discussed this in the past. There are a couple of possible
>> explanations. One is that it's a fixed expression: just add tu'lu' to mean
>> "there is/are." Another is that it's an example of the phenomenon described
>> in KGT: "Common Errors: The Case of lu-."
>>
>> I have a vague notion that lutu'lu' has appeared somewhere, but it's not
>> in TKD or KGT, the only materials I have handy and searchable right now.
>>
>> --
>> SuStel
>> http://www.trimboli.name/
>>
>> ______________________________**_________________
>> Tlhingan-hol mailing list
>> Tlhingan-hol@stodi.**digitalkingdom.org<Tlhingan-hol@stodi.digitalkingdom.org>
>> http://stodi.digitalkingdom.**org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-**hol<http://stodi.digitalkingdom.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol>
>>
>
>
> ______________________________**_________________
> Tlhingan-hol mailing list
> Tlhingan-hol@stodi.**digitalkingdom.org<Tlhingan-hol@stodi.digitalkingdom.org>
> http://stodi.digitalkingdom.**org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-**hol<http://stodi.digitalkingdom.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol>
>
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Hi!<div><br></div><div>I'm sorry if I'm wrong in any way. I'm t=
he beginner who was asking about "lutu'lu'".<br><div><br>=
</div><div>In my opinion this error comes from treating tu'lu' as e=
nglish "There is". So let's assume it is for a second. To say=
"there are people in the room", it's logical to add lu- at t=
he beginning so the subject was plural as in this case the subject would be=
a person or persons who are in the room... However even in this case it is=
n't 100% correct to use lu- because there's no object in "ther=
e are klingons in the room" sentence, therefore there's no need to=
lu-, "0" instead should be used for <they> -> <none&=
gt;. =A0pa'Daq tlhInganpu' tu'lu' should be enough.</div>
<div><br></div><div>Now if you look at the tu'lu' in the Klingon wa=
y (As explained in TKD), tu' means to observe, find. lu' means that=
there's indefinite subject and the object is a person / persons who ar=
e being observed.=A0</div>
<div><br></div><div>pa'Daq tlhInganpu' tu'lu' someone obser=
ves klingons in the room. If you add lu- at the beginnig, the subject is pl=
ural so more than one person is observing (what doesn't really change a=
nything, besides the fact that there's more people who can confirm that=
klingons are in the room) but what's more important with lu- you chang=
e object to singular him/her/it. And you can't really use it with tlhIn=
ganpu' anymore because it's an error.</div>
<div><br></div><div><span style=3D"border-collapse:collapse;color:rgb(136, =
136, 136)">--<br>Sincerely,<br><br>Daniel Danecki (Wiechu)</span><br>
<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">2011/11/4 Robyn Stewart <span dir=3D"ltr=
"><<a href=3D"mailto:robyn@flyingstart.ca">robyn@flyingstart.ca</a>><=
/span><br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;bord=
er-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">
I think I've been convinced by the ubiquity of the so-called error, inc=
luding the example illustrating the rule, that it is not an error, that it =
is the way the language it. It's exactly analogous to the French ce n&#=
39;est pas being used were ce ne sont pas should be, and the same thing isn=
't unknown in English, "There's plenty of them around here.&qu=
ot; =A0"There's five of them." =A0"There's" is =
just easier to say than "There'r" =A0I guess.<br>
<br>
You know how when Germans learn English [hi Germans!] they use rules that t=
he two languages once shared and produce verb forms that while not actually=
ungrammatical in English are marked because no native English speaker has =
used them for over a hundred years? =A0I am now convinced that lutu'lu&=
#39; is a hypercorrection like that. I might even stop using it. At least i=
n dialogue.<div>
<div></div><div class=3D"h5"><br>
<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
We've discussed this in the past. There are a couple of possible explan=
ations. One is that it's a fixed expression: just add tu'lu' to=
mean "there is/are." Another is that it's an example of the =
phenomenon described in KGT: "Common Errors: The Case of lu-."<br=
>
<br>
I have a vague notion that lutu'lu' has appeared somewhere, but it&=
#39;s not in TKD or KGT, the only materials I have handy and searchable rig=
ht now.<br>
<br>
--<br>
SuStel<br>
<a href=3D"http://www.trimboli.name/" target=3D"_blank">http://www.trimboli=
.name/</a><br>
<br>
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Tlhingan-hol@stodi.<u></u>digitalkingdom.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"http://stodi.digitalkingdom.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol" t=
arget=3D"_blank">http://stodi.digitalkingdom.<u></u>org/mailman/listinfo/tl=
hingan-<u></u>hol</a><br>
</blockquote>
<br>
<br>
______________________________<u></u>_________________<br>
Tlhingan-hol mailing list<br>
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Tlhingan-hol@stodi.<u></u>digitalkingdom.org</a><br>
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arget=3D"_blank">http://stodi.digitalkingdom.<u></u>org/mailman/listinfo/tl=
hingan-<u></u>hol</a><br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br></div></div>
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