[90295] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [Tlhingan-hol] nuq bop bom: 'ay' javmaH Soch:
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Qov)
Fri Oct 28 15:42:48 2011
Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2011 12:38:03 -0700
To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org
From: Qov <robyn@flyingstart.ca>
In-Reply-To: <4EAAFFB5.7090007@trimboli.name>
Errors-To: tlhingan-hol-bounces@stodi.digitalkingdom.org
At 12:17 28/10/2011, David Trimboli wrote:
>On 10/28/2011 2:27 PM, Robyn Stewart wrote:
>>
>>At 10:53 28/10/2011, David Trimboli wrote:
>>>On 10/28/2011 1:19 PM, Qov wrote:
>>>
>>>>2. ghunchu'wI' started discussion on the thing that I found.
>>>>On Fri, Oct 28, 2011 at 10:58 AM, Qov <robyn@flyingstart.ca> wrote:
>>>>> > jatlh "qavoqbe' bIjatlh."[38]
>>>>> > ...
>>>>> > [38] Ok this is a way more interesting question than the one about
>>>>>whether I
>>>>> > should use the word jatlh or ja' every time I use quotation marks. I
>>>>>want to
>>>>> > see how you react to this, then I will tell you what I am thinking
>>>>>about it.
>>>>>
>>>>>Hey, that's neat. I didn't think anything of it when I read it,
>>>>>besides quietly noting that it was properly formed as reported speech
>>>>>according to TKD. Now that you point it out as something worth
>>>>>focusing on, I realize that what she actually had said was {vIvoqbe'}.
>>>>>
>>>>>It works. I'm willing to consider it the moral equivalent of
>>>>>tense-mangling in English reported speech: "You said you were bringing
>>>>>donuts next week." If you think too hard, it seems broken, but it's
>>>>>the right way to do it.
>>>>
>>>>As ghunchu'wI' pointed out, what 'eSSIm said was vIvoqbe' - I don't
>>>>trust him . What Mahoun would say in English would be "You said you
>>>>don't trust me." Outside the context of this story, if I asked you how
>>>>to say "You said you trust me," in Klingon, everyone would say <bIjatlh
>>>>qavoq> (or <qavoq bIjatlh>). So does the fact that the context made her
>>>>actual word be vIvoq mean that bIjatlh qavoq is not correct here? I
>>>>think bIjatlh qavoq means "you said you trust me" regardless of whether
>>>>the actual words spoken were, "QIpbogh novvetlh SuD vIvoq," "DaHjaj
>>>>qavoqchoH," "I trust you" or even "Hovmey Davan." For example in an
>>>>earlier draft the next line was "SaH Duj bIjatlhDI'." I don't think
>>>>Mahoun ever said the wards "SaH Duj" but he said other words that avered
>>>>the existence of a ship, and no one would protest that <SaH Duj
>>>>bIjatlhDI'> is not the way to say when you said there was a ship would
>>>>they? I think a Klingon can say "You said there was a ship," without
>>>>saying <bIjatlh INSERT_EXACT_QUOTATION_HERE.>
>>>>
>>>>This is the difference between quoted speech and reported speech that I
>>>>was getting at in the earlier discussion about whether my use of
>>>>quotation marks instead of attributed speech tags was acceptable. (For
>>>>the record, and I'm sure the proponents of always using them have
>>>>noticed, I've started using them almost always. I still feel that
>>>>there's a difference when a character is saying "Person X said this" as
>>>>opposed to when *I* am saying it. But the more I thought about it the
>>>>more I wanted to use ja' and jatlh each time.)
>>>
>>>At the beginning of Power Klingon, we have:
>>>
>>>tlhIngan: nuqneH?
>>>Human: 'IH jaj, qar'a'?
>>>tlhIngan: jISaHbe'.
>>>Human: bISaHbe' qatlh bIjatlh?
>>>
>>>So your position may be supported. As far as we know, the Human is
>>>speaking grammatical Klingon, albeit inappropriately.
>>
>>What the Human said doesn't support my position. I think the human
>>should have said, "jISaHbe' qatlh bIjatlh." The position I have taken is
>>that to report what someone said, it is acceptable to paraphrase what
>>they said, if necessary changing the addressee for clarity, but
>>retaining the words as ones that the person being reported could have
>>said in the situation being reported on, i.e. with the correct prefix
>>direction for them.
>>
>>To me, "bISaHbe' qatlh bIjatlh" means "Why did you say I don't care?"
>>This example seems to contradict my understanding that you should not
>>reverse the direction of the prefixes in reported speech.
>>
>>Is p.67 of TKD, the exchange in PK and that newsgroup example the sum
>>total of our knowledge of reported speech and quotations? Both the
>>latter instances are reporting a first person singular no object speech
>>act. They seem to directly contradict one another.
>>
>>tlhIngan jIH bIjatlh - speech reported exactly as the person said it
>>bISaHbe' bIjatlh - prefix changed to match the observer's perspective.
>>
>>I would prefer to resolve the contradiction by assuming the Human made
>>an error by formulating the reported speech in the manner of Federation
>>Standard and not in the Klingon way.
>>
>>>But Okrand also gave a counter-example in the old MSN newsgroup, which
>>>he describes as "giving a direct quotation":
>>>
>>>tlhIngan jIH bIjatlh "you say, 'I am a Klingon'"
>>>
>>>Nowhere has Okrand ever explained that Klingons use reported speech
>>>instead of direct quotations.
>>
>>When he translates HIqaghQo' qaja'pu' as "I told you not to interrupt
>>me" he is demonstrating reported speech. If he weren't, the translation
>>would have been the literal meaning he gives below. In other words
>>Okrand hasn't explained that Klingons use reported speech instead of
>>direct quotations, but he has demonstrated that they use what look like
>>direct quotations in reported speech.
>>
>>How do you think Mahoun should say, "You said you don't trust me," in
>>this context? <vIvoqbe' bIjatlh>? How should he said it if her exact
>>words were. "luvoq latlhpu' 'a jIQoch" or "Davoqbe'nIS 'e' chupmo'
>>jupwI' vuDDaj vIlajta'."?
>
>Ah, I see. You're saying that direct quotation =
>need not be a perfect reproduction=97it's enough =
>to use words the speaker *might* have said if =
>they were to say it in a form convenient for the =
>current speaker. I agree with this. You're not =
>citing an encyclopedia, you're talking.
Yes, that's one of the things I am saying. The =
other is more specific and probably more =
controversial. There may not have been enough of =
it quoted to make the point clear so I'll describe it again.
'eSSIm is speaking to someone else while Mahoun is present.
The other person asks her about Mahoun.
jatlh <wIvoqlaH'a'?>
jatlh 'eSSIm, <vIvoqbe'>.
Later: <qavoqbe' bIjatlh> jatlh Mahoun
Devoid of context anyone would translate jatlh =
Mahoun <qavoqbe' bIjatlh>. as: Mahoun said, "You =
said you don't trust me". (or something similar with different verb tenses)
So my conjecture is that it is alright for Mahoun =
to say <qavoqbe' bIjatlh> even though that =
requires changing the direction of her speech, =
something different than mere paraphrasing.
- Qov =
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