[90022] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [Tlhingan-hol] 2 letter language code for Klingon?
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (lojmIt tI'wI' nuv)
Fri Oct 7 10:06:12 2011
From: "lojmIt tI'wI' nuv" <lojmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2011 10:05:40 -0400
In-Reply-To: <CABDLMbWD58tOF_t5JRgZj233CqdcsrYUEPi67HddgwSpUhUriw@mail.gmail.com>
To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org
Errors-To: tlhingan-hol-bounces@stodi.digitalkingdom.org
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I know from his Web site that SuStel came up with an interesting =
alphabet derived from Tolkien languages that used diacritical marks to =
represent vowels following the consonants to which they are applied. =
While this is spatially efficient, it's really still an alphabet, with =
vowels overlaid upon consonants and a rule explaining that in terms of =
phonemes, the vowel follows the overlaid consonant.
So far as I know, written languages take one of three forms:
1. As in ancient Chinese, (or arguably ASL) the written language is =
wholly independent of the spoken language. Symbols represent ideas =
instead of specific words, and the grammar is wholly unrelated to the =
spoken language.
2. As in Cherokee or Japanese, they use a syllabary.
3. They use an alphabet.
Two out of these three systems link the sounds of the spoken language to =
the written language (though English, in particular, is a bit wild and =
loose, poorly mapping what is written with what is spoken). We like =
thinking Klingon is weirdly alien in as many ways as possible, but =
perhaps human linguists are a bit overtaxed trying to stray from human =
patterns too much when coming up with written Klingon.
Klingon phonemes for syllables are insufficiently limited for a =
syllabary to work well. That closing consonant on syllables simply pumps =
up the potential number of syllables too much to make a syllabary work, =
unless you compare it to symbolic languages, like Chinese, of course. =
Cherokee and Japanese lack closing consonants. Both languages have one =
consonant syllable (the Cherokee "s" and the Japanese "n") and the rest =
are either bare vowels or single consonants followed by single vowels. =
(It was refreshing to realize that in Japanese, "Honda" is a three =
syllable word -- hoe-nnn-dah.)
So, I'm not upset that Klingon uses an alphabet, and I'm glad that in =
that alphabet, the romanized ligatures are combined to form single =
characters. That's what the fans came up with on their own and now it is =
apparently official.
The movies greek the characters for artistic reasons. Given the degree =
so many other things in the Star Trek universe are intentionally kept as =
consistent as possible, this choice was unfortunate, and will annoy us =
forever, but so be it. When you see Klingon writing in a Star Trek =
movie, just figure it's the Universal Translator Making Big Mistakes.
After all, there's no reason to believe that the technology for =
Universal Translators would be limited to audio-only, right? The =
Federation video recorders probably run the Klingon through a =
translation subroutine written by Microsoft, and we're stuck with the =
result.
Or maybe Klingon uses multi-color overlays in their text displays so =
that the REAL text is written in ultra-violet, which they can see and we =
can't, and they overlay red text, just to confuse spies who might =
otherwise examine the displays more closely if they were apparently =
blank, yet Klingons could read them.
Perhaps, given their capacity to see ultra-violet, they can't see red, =
giving them a particular distaste for Federation personnel wearing red =
shirts, explaining at least one factor leading to the remarkably short =
life spans of federation personnel wearing red shirts.
In an imaginary world, things can be explained many ways.
lojmIt tI'wI' nuv
lojmIttI7wI7nuv@gmail.com
On Oct 7, 2011, at 8:02 AM, Andr=E9 M=FCller wrote:
> Things like that happen(ed) on Earth too. Some languages, like =
Mongolian, developped a whole new (or rather: entirely modified) =
alphabet to represent the sounds and syllabic structures of an important =
foreign language in a better way, in that case: Sanskrit. We remember =
seeing some pIqaD on TV on Klingon ships but whenever we try to decipher =
it, we get things like "ghvQ apu HHDj" or something. So in-fiction we =
might conclude that Klingon either used a different mapping for these =
20-something characters of pIqaD and later on changed to the system we =
know from EuroTalk (I ordered it a few days ago, yay!) and the internet, =
or that the system was entirely different in the past.
>=20
> =46rom the number of different pIqaD characters, though, we can =
conclude that it couldn't have been a syllabary (too few characters). A =
script like Korean Hangeul or the Mongolian Soyombo script would work =
excellently with Klingon, but it seems they've always been using an =
alphabet, just switched it once (remember those blocky klinzhai =
characters?) and "now", sometime between the movies and EuroTalk, it =
apparently changed the phonetic value of the characters. It might be =
possible, though, to use a 20-odd character alphabet in a completely =
different way. Considering that the core of a Klingon syllable is always =
1 of 5 vowels, there might be ways of representing these syllables in =
different ways than just a 1:1 CVC(C) syllabic structure... but that's =
mere speculation.
>=20
> The ones more creative than me could possibly think of a scenario, =
where the Klingon characters we know where given new phonetic values, =
maybe through a political decree. Maybe the characters were found out by =
some Klingon linguists to be once borrowed from a foreign species (the =
Hur'q?) and this caused a scandal among the proud Klingon race, so the =
phonetic value of the script was then randomized or something like =
that...
>=20
> Personally, I have to admit, I've never been so fond of pIqaD.
> - Andr=E9
>=20
>=20
>=20
> 2011/10/7 Seruq <seruq@bellsouth.net>
> Perhaps there is more than one pIqaD system, like traditional Chinese =
and simplified Chinese.
> Perhaps there is a more sophisticated original pIqaD, which works in a =
Klingon environment; but
> along with learning English in space travel, they also over time =
developed an alphabet system that
> allows them to handle aliens words. With DIvI' Hol being "alien", =
Humans saw this newer simplified
> pIqaD being used, thought it was the "normal, everyday" pIqaD, and =
started to use that.
> So, it is official, it is not official, and it leaves open a =
possibility for a full "canon" pIqaD to
> came to light.
>=20
>=20
> DloraH
>=20
> PS: I can't stand this... I'm forcing this back to plain text.
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> ________________________________
>=20
> From: Terrence Donnelly =
[mailto:terrence.donnelly@sbcglobal.net]
> Sent: Thursday, October 06, 2011 16:51
> To: tlhingan-hol@stodi.digitalkingdom.org
> Subject: Re: [Tlhingan-hol] 2 letter language code for Klingon?
>=20
>=20
> It's dangerous to speculate about what would be "better" for =
writing any language, but given
> ta' Hol's penchant for CVC syllables, something similar to Korean =
hangul would probably be the most
> efficient. But if other dialects of Klingon have different syllable =
forms, then a simple alphabet
> may have proven most flexible over time.
>=20
> -- ter'eS
>=20
> --- On Thu, 10/6/11, Josh Badgley <joshbadgley@hotmail.com> =
wrote:
>=20
>=20
> bIlughbej Mark. I am very pleased with pIqaD as is. I =
have found it incredibly
> easy to learn to write, and my reading skills are coming along well. =
And I wanted to add a few
> thoughts. First of all, the idea that pIqaD "turn[ing] out to be =
nothing more than a simple
> alphabet" is not so far-fetched. Perhaps those of us living in =
Western countries who are accustomed
> to the Latin alphabet would find it more "alien" if pIqaD turned out =
to be an abudiga a la
> Devanagari or an even more complex system (like Chinese), but we are =
not the only humans on the
> planet. Perhaps a native speaker of a language written in Devanagari =
would find it equally "exotic"
> and "alien" to have an alphabet such as ours where the letters are not =
joined together and each
> consonant does not have an inherent "a" sound. What I am saying is =
that there seems to be no way to
> devise a "litmus test" to determine whether or not the pIqaD that is =
now canon is sufficiently
> "alien" enough. And I would also argue that perhaps Klingons would =
find such a system much more
> straightforward and economical. Perhaps it would be easier for =
Klingon children to learn, meaning
> that they could spend less time on learning the alphabet and more time =
learning the art of war.
>=20
>=20
> Just a few thoughts, I probably don't know what I'm =
talking about, but I think for
> now what we have is pretty damn cool.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> -- jhb
>=20
>=20
>=20
> > Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2011 07:23:18 -0400
> > From: mark@kli.org
> > To: tlhingan-hol@stodi.digitalkingdom.org
> > Subject: Re: [Tlhingan-hol] 2 letter language code =
for Klingon?
> >
> > On 10/05/2011 09:22 AM, David Trimboli wrote:
> > > I, for one, will be
> > > quite disappointed if it turns out that the poorly =
understood pIqaD that
> > > handles all the dialects well mentioned in TKD =
turns out to be nothing more
> > > than a simple alphabet that happens to exactly =
match the transcription
> > > system introduced in the same book. What a waste!
> >
> > It might be disappointing, and it would be cooler if =
it were otherwise,
> > but it should be noted that if it really be as simple =
as that, even so
> > that would be completely feasible as a "real" =
language. Such things
> > happen all the time, when spellings get set to a =
standard dialect.
> >
> > ~mark
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Tlhingan-hol mailing list
> > Tlhingan-hol@stodi.digitalkingdom.org
> > =
http://stodi.digitalkingdom.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol
>=20
>=20
> -----Inline Attachment Follows-----
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Tlhingan-hol mailing list
> Tlhingan-hol@stodi.digitalkingdom.org
> =
http://stodi.digitalkingdom.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Tlhingan-hol mailing list
> Tlhingan-hol@stodi.digitalkingdom.org
> http://stodi.digitalkingdom.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Tlhingan-hol mailing list
> Tlhingan-hol@stodi.digitalkingdom.org
> http://stodi.digitalkingdom.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol
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Content-Type: text/html;
charset=iso-8859-1
<html><head></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; =
"><div>I know from his Web site that SuStel came up with an interesting =
alphabet derived from Tolkien languages that used diacritical marks to =
represent vowels following the consonants to which they are applied. =
While this is spatially efficient, it's really still an alphabet, with =
vowels overlaid upon consonants and a rule explaining that in terms of =
phonemes, the vowel follows the overlaid =
consonant.</div><div><br></div><div>So far as I know, written languages =
take one of three forms:</div><div>1. As in ancient Chinese, (or =
arguably ASL) the written language is wholly independent of the spoken =
language. Symbols represent ideas instead of specific words, and the =
grammar is wholly unrelated to the spoken language.</div><div>2. As in =
Cherokee or Japanese, they use a syllabary.</div><div>3. They use an =
alphabet.</div><div><br></div><div>Two out of these three systems link =
the sounds of the spoken language to the written language (though =
English, in particular, is a bit wild and loose, poorly mapping what is =
written with what is spoken). We like thinking Klingon is weirdly alien =
in as many ways as possible, but perhaps human linguists are a bit =
overtaxed trying to stray from human patterns too much when coming up =
with written Klingon.</div><div><br></div><div>Klingon phonemes for =
syllables are insufficiently limited for a syllabary to work well. That =
closing consonant on syllables simply pumps up the potential number of =
syllables too much to make a syllabary work, unless you compare it to =
symbolic languages, like Chinese, of course. Cherokee and Japanese lack =
closing consonants. Both languages have one consonant syllable (the =
Cherokee "s" and the Japanese "n") and the rest are either bare vowels =
or single consonants followed by single vowels. (It was refreshing to =
realize that in Japanese, "Honda" is a three syllable word -- =
hoe-nnn-dah.)</div><div><br></div><div>So, I'm not upset that Klingon =
uses an alphabet, and I'm glad that in that alphabet, the romanized =
ligatures are combined to form single characters. That's what the fans =
came up with on their own and now it is apparently =
official.</div><div><br></div><div>The movies greek the characters for =
artistic reasons. Given the degree so many other things in the Star Trek =
universe are intentionally kept as consistent as possible, this choice =
was unfortunate, and will annoy us forever, but so be it. When you see =
Klingon writing in a Star Trek movie, just figure it's the Universal =
Translator Making Big Mistakes.</div><div><br></div><div>After all, =
there's no reason to believe that the technology for Universal =
Translators would be limited to audio-only, right? The Federation video =
recorders probably run the Klingon through a translation subroutine =
written by Microsoft, and we're stuck with the =
result.</div><div><br></div><div>Or maybe Klingon uses multi-color =
overlays in their text displays so that the REAL text is written in =
ultra-violet, which they can see and we can't, and they overlay red =
text, just to confuse spies who might otherwise examine the displays =
more closely if they were apparently blank, yet Klingons could read =
them.</div><div><br></div><div>Perhaps, given their capacity to see =
ultra-violet, they can't see red, giving them a particular distaste for =
Federation personnel wearing red shirts, explaining at least one factor =
leading to the remarkably short life spans of federation personnel =
wearing red shirts.</div><div><br></div><div>In an imaginary world, =
things can be explained many ways.</div><br><div>
<span class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-collapse: separate; =
color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; =
font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: auto; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: =
auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-size: medium; "><div>lojmIt =
tI'wI' nuv</div><div><a =
href=3D"mailto:lojmIttI7wI7nuv@gmail.com">lojmIttI7wI7nuv@gmail.com</a></d=
iv><div><br></div></span><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline">
</div>
<br><div><div>On Oct 7, 2011, at 8:02 AM, Andr=E9 M=FCller =
wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><div dir=3D"ltr">Things like that happen(ed) on Earth too. =
Some languages, like Mongolian, developped a whole new (or rather: =
entirely modified) alphabet to represent the sounds and syllabic =
structures of an important foreign language in a better way, in that =
case: Sanskrit. We remember seeing some pIqaD on TV on Klingon ships but =
whenever we try to decipher it, we get things like "ghvQ apu HHDj" or =
something. So in-fiction we might conclude that Klingon either used a =
different mapping for these 20-something characters of pIqaD and later =
on changed to the system we know from EuroTalk (I ordered it a few days =
ago, yay!) and the internet, or that the system was entirely different =
in the past.<br>
<br>=46rom the number of different pIqaD characters, though, we can =
conclude that it couldn't have been a syllabary (too few characters). A =
script like Korean Hangeul or the Mongolian Soyombo script would work =
excellently with Klingon, but it seems they've always been using an =
alphabet, just switched it once (remember those blocky klinzhai =
characters?) and "now", sometime between the movies and EuroTalk, it =
apparently changed the phonetic value of the characters. It might be =
possible, though, to use a 20-odd character alphabet in a completely =
different way. Considering that the core of a Klingon syllable is always =
1 of 5 vowels, there might be ways of representing these syllables in =
different ways than just a 1:1 CVC(C) syllabic structure... but that's =
mere speculation.<br>
<br>The ones more creative than me could possibly think of a scenario, =
where the Klingon characters we know where given new phonetic values, =
maybe through a political decree. Maybe the characters were found out by =
some Klingon linguists to be once borrowed from a foreign species (the =
Hur'q?) and this caused a scandal among the proud Klingon race, so the =
phonetic value of the script was then randomized or something like =
that...<br>
<br>Personally, I have to admit, I've never been so fond of pIqaD.<br>- =
Andr=E9<br><br><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">2011/10/7 Seruq <span =
dir=3D"ltr"><<a =
href=3D"mailto:seruq@bellsouth.net">seruq@bellsouth.net</a>></span><br>=
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 =
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">Perhaps there is more =
than one pIqaD system, like traditional Chinese and simplified =
Chinese.<br>
Perhaps there is a more sophisticated original pIqaD, which works in a =
Klingon environment; but<br>
along with learning English in space travel, they also over time =
developed an alphabet system that<br>
allows them to handle aliens words. With DIvI' Hol being "alien", =
Humans saw this newer simplified<br>
pIqaD being used, thought it was the "normal, everyday" pIqaD, and =
started to use that.<br>
So, it is official, it is not official, and it leaves open a possibility =
for a full "canon" pIqaD to<br>
came to light.<br>
<br>
<br>
DloraH<br>
<br>
PS: I can't stand this... I'm forcing this back to plain text.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
________________________________<br>
<br>
From: Terrence Donnelly [mailto:<a =
href=3D"mailto:terrence.donnelly@sbcglobal.net">terrence.donnelly@sbcgloba=
l.net</a>]<br>
Sent: Thursday, October 06, 2011 16:51<br>
To: <a =
href=3D"mailto:tlhingan-hol@stodi.digitalkingdom.org">tlhingan-hol@stodi.d=
igitalkingdom.org</a><br>
Subject: Re: [Tlhingan-hol] 2 letter =
language code for Klingon?<br>
<br>
<br>
It's dangerous to speculate about what would =
be "better" for writing any language, but given<br>
ta' Hol's penchant for CVC syllables, something similar to Korean hangul =
would probably be the most<br>
efficient. But if other dialects of Klingon have different syllable =
forms, then a simple alphabet<br>
may have proven most flexible over time.<br>
<br>
-- ter'eS<br>
<br>
--- On Thu, 10/6/11, Josh Badgley <<a =
href=3D"mailto:joshbadgley@hotmail.com">joshbadgley@hotmail.com</a>> =
wrote:<br>
<br>
<br>
bIlughbej Mark. =
I am very pleased with pIqaD as is. I have found it =
incredibly<br>
easy to learn to write, and my reading skills are coming along well. =
And I wanted to add a few<br>
thoughts. First of all, the idea that pIqaD "turn[ing] out to be =
nothing more than a simple<br>
alphabet" is not so far-fetched. Perhaps those of us living in =
Western countries who are accustomed<br>
to the Latin alphabet would find it more "alien" if pIqaD turned out to =
be an abudiga a la<br>
Devanagari or an even more complex system (like Chinese), but we are not =
the only humans on the<br>
planet. Perhaps a native speaker of a language written in Devanagari =
would find it equally "exotic"<br>
and "alien" to have an alphabet such as ours where the letters are not =
joined together and each<br>
consonant does not have an inherent "a" sound. What I am saying is =
that there seems to be no way to<br>
devise a "litmus test" to determine whether or not the pIqaD that is now =
canon is sufficiently<br>
"alien" enough. And I would also argue that perhaps Klingons would =
find such a system much more<br>
straightforward and economical. Perhaps it would be easier for =
Klingon children to learn, meaning<br>
that they could spend less time on learning the alphabet and more time =
learning the art of war.<br>
<br>
<br>
Just a few =
thoughts, I probably don't know what I'm talking about, but I think =
for<br>
now what we have is pretty damn cool.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
-- jhb<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
> Date: Thu, =
6 Oct 2011 07:23:18 -0400<br>
> From: <a =
href=3D"mailto:mark@kli.org">mark@kli.org</a><br>
> To: <a =
href=3D"mailto:tlhingan-hol@stodi.digitalkingdom.org">tlhingan-hol@stodi.d=
igitalkingdom.org</a><br>
> Subject: =
Re: [Tlhingan-hol] 2 letter language code for Klingon?<br>
><br>
> On =
10/05/2011 09:22 AM, David Trimboli wrote:<br>
> > I, for =
one, will be<br>
> > quite =
disappointed if it turns out that the poorly understood pIqaD that<br>
> > =
handles all the dialects well mentioned in TKD turns out to be nothing =
more<br>
> > than a =
simple alphabet that happens to exactly match the transcription<br>
> > system =
introduced in the same book. What a waste!<br>
><br>
> It might be =
disappointing, and it would be cooler if it were otherwise,<br>
> but it =
should be noted that if it really be as simple as that, even so<br>
> that would =
be completely feasible as a "real" language. Such things<br>
> happen all =
the time, when spellings get set to a standard dialect.<br>
><br>
> ~mark<br>
><br>
> =
_______________________________________________<br>
> =
Tlhingan-hol mailing list<br>
> <a =
href=3D"mailto:Tlhingan-hol@stodi.digitalkingdom.org">Tlhingan-hol@stodi.d=
igitalkingdom.org</a><br>
> <a =
href=3D"http://stodi.digitalkingdom.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol" =
target=3D"_blank">http://stodi.digitalkingdom.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhinga=
n-hol</a><br>
<br>
<br>
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_______________________________________________<br>
Tlhingan-hol =
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href=3D"mailto:Tlhingan-hol@stodi.digitalkingdom.org">Tlhingan-hol@stodi.d=
igitalkingdom.org</a><br>
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href=3D"http://stodi.digitalkingdom.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol" =
target=3D"_blank">http://stodi.digitalkingdom.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhinga=
n-hol</a><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
Tlhingan-hol mailing list<br>
<a =
href=3D"mailto:Tlhingan-hol@stodi.digitalkingdom.org">Tlhingan-hol@stodi.d=
igitalkingdom.org</a><br>
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target=3D"_blank">http://stodi.digitalkingdom.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhinga=
n-hol</a><br>
</blockquote></div><br></div>
_______________________________________________<br>Tlhingan-hol mailing =
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