[90020] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [Tlhingan-hol] 2 letter language code for Klingon?
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (=?UTF-8?B?QW5kcsOpIE3DvGxsZXI=?=)
Fri Oct 7 08:03:16 2011
In-Reply-To: <4820DA2A2B944692881EB6297E6DEFA4@no1>
Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2011 14:02:51 +0200
From: =?UTF-8?B?QW5kcsOpIE3DvGxsZXI=?= <esperantist@gmail.com>
To: Seruq <seruq@bellsouth.net>
Cc: tlhingan-hol@kli.org
Errors-To: tlhingan-hol-bounces@stodi.digitalkingdom.org
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Things like that happen(ed) on Earth too. Some languages, like Mongolian,
developped a whole new (or rather: entirely modified) alphabet to represent
the sounds and syllabic structures of an important foreign language in a
better way, in that case: Sanskrit. We remember seeing some pIqaD on TV on
Klingon ships but whenever we try to decipher it, we get things like "ghvQ
apu HHDj" or something. So in-fiction we might conclude that Klingon either
used a different mapping for these 20-something characters of pIqaD and
later on changed to the system we know from EuroTalk (I ordered it a few
days ago, yay!) and the internet, or that the system was entirely different
in the past.
From the number of different pIqaD characters, though, we can conclude that
it couldn't have been a syllabary (too few characters). A script like Korea=
n
Hangeul or the Mongolian Soyombo script would work excellently with Klingon=
,
but it seems they've always been using an alphabet, just switched it once
(remember those blocky klinzhai characters?) and "now", sometime between th=
e
movies and EuroTalk, it apparently changed the phonetic value of the
characters. It might be possible, though, to use a 20-odd character alphabe=
t
in a completely different way. Considering that the core of a Klingon
syllable is always 1 of 5 vowels, there might be ways of representing these
syllables in different ways than just a 1:1 CVC(C) syllabic structure... bu=
t
that's mere speculation.
The ones more creative than me could possibly think of a scenario, where th=
e
Klingon characters we know where given new phonetic values, maybe through a
political decree. Maybe the characters were found out by some Klingon
linguists to be once borrowed from a foreign species (the Hur'q?) and this
caused a scandal among the proud Klingon race, so the phonetic value of the
script was then randomized or something like that...
Personally, I have to admit, I've never been so fond of pIqaD.
- Andr=C3=A9
2011/10/7 Seruq <seruq@bellsouth.net>
> Perhaps there is more than one pIqaD system, like traditional Chinese and
> simplified Chinese.
> Perhaps there is a more sophisticated original pIqaD, which works in a
> Klingon environment; but
> along with learning English in space travel, they also over time develope=
d
> an alphabet system that
> allows them to handle aliens words. With DIvI' Hol being "alien", Humans
> saw this newer simplified
> pIqaD being used, thought it was the "normal, everyday" pIqaD, and starte=
d
> to use that.
> So, it is official, it is not official, and it leaves open a possibility
> for a full "canon" pIqaD to
> came to light.
>
>
> DloraH
>
> PS: I can't stand this... I'm forcing this back to plain text.
>
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
>
> From: Terrence Donnelly [mailto:terrence.donnelly@sbcglobal.net]
> Sent: Thursday, October 06, 2011 16:51
> To: tlhingan-hol@stodi.digitalkingdom.org
> Subject: Re: [Tlhingan-hol] 2 letter language code for Klingon?
>
>
> It's dangerous to speculate about what would be "better" for writi=
ng
> any language, but given
> ta' Hol's penchant for CVC syllables, something similar to Korean hangul
> would probably be the most
> efficient. But if other dialects of Klingon have different syllable forms=
,
> then a simple alphabet
> may have proven most flexible over time.
>
> -- ter'eS
>
> --- On Thu, 10/6/11, Josh Badgley <joshbadgley@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> bIlughbej Mark. I am very pleased with pIqaD as is. I ha=
ve
> found it incredibly
> easy to learn to write, and my reading skills are coming along well. And=
I
> wanted to add a few
> thoughts. First of all, the idea that pIqaD "turn[ing] out to be nothing
> more than a simple
> alphabet" is not so far-fetched. Perhaps those of us living in Western
> countries who are accustomed
> to the Latin alphabet would find it more "alien" if pIqaD turned out to b=
e
> an abudiga a la
> Devanagari or an even more complex system (like Chinese), but we are not
> the only humans on the
> planet. Perhaps a native speaker of a language written in Devanagari woul=
d
> find it equally "exotic"
> and "alien" to have an alphabet such as ours where the letters are not
> joined together and each
> consonant does not have an inherent "a" sound. What I am saying is that
> there seems to be no way to
> devise a "litmus test" to determine whether or not the pIqaD that is now
> canon is sufficiently
> "alien" enough. And I would also argue that perhaps Klingons would find
> such a system much more
> straightforward and economical. Perhaps it would be easier for Klingon
> children to learn, meaning
> that they could spend less time on learning the alphabet and more time
> learning the art of war.
>
>
> Just a few thoughts, I probably don't know what I'm talkin=
g
> about, but I think for
> now what we have is pretty damn cool.
>
>
>
> -- jhb
>
>
>
> > Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2011 07:23:18 -0400
> > From: mark@kli.org
> > To: tlhingan-hol@stodi.digitalkingdom.org
> > Subject: Re: [Tlhingan-hol] 2 letter language code for
> Klingon?
> >
> > On 10/05/2011 09:22 AM, David Trimboli wrote:
> > > I, for one, will be
> > > quite disappointed if it turns out that the poorly
> understood pIqaD that
> > > handles all the dialects well mentioned in TKD turns o=
ut
> to be nothing more
> > > than a simple alphabet that happens to exactly match t=
he
> transcription
> > > system introduced in the same book. What a waste!
> >
> > It might be disappointing, and it would be cooler if it
> were otherwise,
> > but it should be noted that if it really be as simple as
> that, even so
> > that would be completely feasible as a "real" language.
> Such things
> > happen all the time, when spellings get set to a standar=
d
> dialect.
> >
> > ~mark
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Tlhingan-hol mailing list
> > Tlhingan-hol@stodi.digitalkingdom.org
> >
> http://stodi.digitalkingdom.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol
>
>
> -----Inline Attachment Follows-----
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Tlhingan-hol mailing list
> Tlhingan-hol@stodi.digitalkingdom.org
>
> http://stodi.digitalkingdom.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Tlhingan-hol mailing list
> Tlhingan-hol@stodi.digitalkingdom.org
> http://stodi.digitalkingdom.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol
>
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<div dir=3D"ltr">Things like that happen(ed) on Earth too. Some languages, =
like Mongolian, developped a whole new (or rather: entirely modified) alpha=
bet to represent the sounds and syllabic structures of an important foreign=
language in a better way, in that case: Sanskrit. We remember seeing some =
pIqaD on TV on Klingon ships but whenever we try to decipher it, we get thi=
ngs like "ghvQ apu HHDj" or something. So in-fiction we might con=
clude that Klingon either used a different mapping for these 20-something c=
haracters of pIqaD and later on changed to the system we know from EuroTalk=
(I ordered it a few days ago, yay!) and the internet, or that the system w=
as entirely different in the past.<br>
<br>From the number of different pIqaD characters, though, we can conclude =
that it couldn't have been a syllabary (too few characters). A script l=
ike Korean Hangeul or the Mongolian Soyombo script would work excellently w=
ith Klingon, but it seems they've always been using an alphabet, just s=
witched it once (remember those blocky klinzhai characters?) and "now&=
quot;, sometime between the movies and EuroTalk, it apparently changed the =
phonetic value of the characters. It might be possible, though, to use a 20=
-odd character alphabet in a completely different way. Considering that the=
core of a Klingon syllable is always 1 of 5 vowels, there might be ways of=
representing these syllables in different ways than just a 1:1 CVC(C) syll=
abic structure... but that's mere speculation.<br>
<br>The ones more creative than me could possibly think of a scenario, wher=
e the Klingon characters we know where given new phonetic values, maybe thr=
ough a political decree. Maybe the characters were found out by some Klingo=
n linguists to be once borrowed from a foreign species (the Hur'q?) and=
this caused a scandal among the proud Klingon race, so the phonetic value =
of the script was then randomized or something like that...<br>
<br>Personally, I have to admit, I've never been so fond of pIqaD.<br>-=
Andr=C3=A9<br><br><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">2011/10/7 Seruq <span=
dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:seruq@bellsouth.net">seruq@bellsouth.net=
</a>></span><br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">Perhaps there is more than one pIqaD system=
, like traditional Chinese and simplified Chinese.<br>
Perhaps there is a more sophisticated original pIqaD, which works in a Klin=
gon environment; but<br>
along with learning English in space travel, they also over time developed =
an alphabet system that<br>
allows them to handle aliens words. =C2=A0With DIvI' Hol being "al=
ien", Humans saw this newer simplified<br>
pIqaD being used, thought it was the "normal, everyday" pIqaD, an=
d started to use that.<br>
So, it is official, it is not official, and it leaves open a possibility fo=
r a full "canon" pIqaD to<br>
came to light.<br>
<br>
<br>
DloraH<br>
<br>
PS: =C2=A0I can't stand this... I'm forcing this back to plain text=
.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
________________________________<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0From: Terrence Donnelly [mailto:<a href=3D"mail=
to:terrence.donnelly@sbcglobal.net">terrence.donnelly@sbcglobal.net</a>]<br=
>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Sent: Thursday, October 06, 2011 16:51<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0To: <a href=3D"mailto:tlhingan-hol@stodi.digita=
lkingdom.org">tlhingan-hol@stodi.digitalkingdom.org</a><br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Subject: Re: [Tlhingan-hol] 2 letter language c=
ode for Klingon?<br>
<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0It's dangerous to speculate about what woul=
d be "better" for writing any language, but given<br>
ta' Hol's penchant for CVC syllables, something similar to Korean h=
angul would probably be the most<br>
efficient. But if other dialects of Klingon have different syllable forms, =
then a simple alphabet<br>
may have proven most flexible over time.<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0-- ter'eS<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0--- On Thu, 10/6/11, Josh Badgley <<a href=
=3D"mailto:joshbadgley@hotmail.com">joshbadgley@hotmail.com</a>> wrote:<=
br>
<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0bIlughbej Mark. =C2=
=A0I am very pleased with pIqaD as is. =C2=A0I have found it incredibly<br>
easy to learn to write, and my reading skills are coming along well. =C2=A0=
And I wanted to add a few<br>
thoughts. =C2=A0First of all, the idea that pIqaD "turn[ing] out to be=
nothing more than a simple<br>
alphabet" is not so far-fetched. =C2=A0Perhaps those of us living in W=
estern countries who are accustomed<br>
to the Latin alphabet would find it more "alien" if pIqaD turned =
out to be an abudiga a la<br>
Devanagari or an even more complex system (like Chinese), but we are not th=
e only humans on the<br>
planet. Perhaps a native speaker of a language written in Devanagari would =
find it equally "exotic"<br>
and "alien" to have an alphabet such as ours where the letters ar=
e not joined together and each<br>
consonant does not have an inherent "a" sound. =C2=A0What I am sa=
ying is that there seems to be no way to<br>
devise a "litmus test" to determine whether or not the pIqaD that=
is now canon is sufficiently<br>
"alien" enough. =C2=A0And I would also argue that perhaps Klingon=
s would find such a system much more<br>
straightforward and economical. =C2=A0Perhaps it would be easier for Klingo=
n children to learn, meaning<br>
that they could spend less time on learning the alphabet and more time lear=
ning the art of war.<br>
<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Just a few thoughts=
, I probably don't know what I'm talking about, but I think for<br>
now what we have is pretty damn cool.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0-- jhb<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> Date: Thu, 6 O=
ct 2011 07:23:18 -0400<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> From: <a href=
=3D"mailto:mark@kli.org">mark@kli.org</a><br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> To: <a href=3D=
"mailto:tlhingan-hol@stodi.digitalkingdom.org">tlhingan-hol@stodi.digitalki=
ngdom.org</a><br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> Subject: Re: [=
Tlhingan-hol] 2 letter language code for Klingon?<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0><br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> On 10/05/2011 =
09:22 AM, David Trimboli wrote:<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> > I, for on=
e, will be<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> > quite dis=
appointed if it turns out that the poorly understood pIqaD that<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> > handles a=
ll the dialects well mentioned in TKD turns out to be nothing more<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> > than a si=
mple alphabet that happens to exactly match the transcription<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> > system in=
troduced in the same book. What a waste!<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0><br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> It might be di=
sappointing, and it would be cooler if it were otherwise,<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> but it should =
be noted that if it really be as simple as that, even so<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> that would be =
completely feasible as a "real" language. Such things<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> happen all the=
time, when spellings get set to a standard dialect.<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0><br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> ~mark<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0><br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> ______________=
_________________________________<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> Tlhingan-hol m=
ailing list<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> <a href=3D"mai=
lto:Tlhingan-hol@stodi.digitalkingdom.org">Tlhingan-hol@stodi.digitalkingdo=
m.org</a><br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> <a href=3D"htt=
p://stodi.digitalkingdom.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol" target=3D"_blan=
k">http://stodi.digitalkingdom.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol</a><br>
<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0-----Inline Attachm=
ent Follows-----<br>
<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0___________________=
____________________________<br>
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g list<br>
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lhingan-hol@stodi.digitalkingdom.org">Tlhingan-hol@stodi.digitalkingdom.org=
</a><br>
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todi.digitalkingdom.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol" target=3D"_blank">ht=
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<br>
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</blockquote></div><br></div>
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