[89990] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [Tlhingan-hol] 2 letter language code for Klingon?
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (lojmIt tI'wI'nuv)
Wed Oct 5 14:12:27 2011
From: lojmIt tI'wI'nuv <lojmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2011 14:11:54 -0400
In-Reply-To: <CAFK8js16AxquUHXySp8cQQJ5BfLq7DifE-LqSu4FTLaY5bUx9w@mail.gmail.com>
To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org
Errors-To: tlhingan-hol-bounces@stodi.digitalkingdom.org
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Throughout the existence of the language, we've always had to deal with =
multiple levels of reality. There's the Star Trek reality that things =
written in Klingon in movies and on the TV shows never make sense to =
anyone anyhow, and this is the root of Okrand's earlier suggestion that =
we don't know anything about the Klingon writing system. Behind that =
reality is the 20th and 21st century reality that the artistic director =
of these movies and TV shows has wanted the artistic freedom to write =
whatever he wants on his sets and computer displays without having to =
consult with some linguist to make the writing make any sense. Okuda =
demanded that Okrand never claim to know anything about the Klingon =
writing system.
Okrand came up with the romanized alphabet simply because if he didn't, =
then he couldn't very effectively write a dictionary for Klingon. Being =
romanized makes it convenient for us to use on this email list.
Meanwhile, he didn't just come up with a way to spell phonetic Klingon. =
He came up with triglyphs and diglyphs for some of the characters. So, =
when some remarkable fans came up with their own pIqaD, Okrand could =
never accept it because Okuda demanded that it, on principle, be =
rejected.
Those were the old days. It wasn't this way because not having a real =
pIqaD benefitted the fictional world of Klingons. It happened because it =
benefitted Okuda.
So, maybe Okuda doesn't care so much these days. Or maybe his word =
doesn't carry as much clout with Okrand as it once did. Or maybe the =
TalkNow! people just slipped this one in without mentioning it to Okrand =
and he didn't bother to notice it.
In any case, they paid Okrand to help them out on this, and in return he =
has declared that the product is now canon, and the product contains =
pIqaD used as an alphabet. Until Okrand makes a public statement that, =
oops, that isn't really written Klingon, then it really is canon.
I don't think it hurts the language. I don't think it hurts the =
fictional culture. It doesn't help us write stuff on this mailing list =
yet. It doesn't really do much but just give us one more thing to play =
with -- a thing many of us have already been playing with for years.
I won't be greatly upset if Okrand does come out and declare that pIqaD =
as shown in TalkNow! is not canon. It won't make a huge difference. I =
don't see why it should be upsetting to anyone if it actually is canon. =
Change happens. The geeks among us can become even geekier by becoming =
fluent at reading and writing pIqaD. We can climb even LOWER on the geek =
ladder. Nobody gets hurt. It's just stuff to do.
pItlh
lojmIt tI'wI'nuv
On Oct 4, 2011, at 10:48 PM, ghunchu'wI' 'utlh wrote:
> On Tue, Oct 4, 2011 at 5:21 PM, David Trimboli <david@trimboli.name> =
wrote:
>> From: ghunchu'wI' 'utlh [mailto:qunchuy@alcaco.net]
>>>=20
>>> If someone wants to point out that students of typography call the =
"tlh"
>>> letter a trigraph because it is composed by abutting three otherwise =
separate
>>> symbols, fine. But Mr. Everson's comment was more than a little =
patronizing.
>>=20
>> If *that* was the point of your response to him, maybe it should have =
been sent off-list.
>=20
> It initially WAS sent off-list. Only after my message was rejected by
> evertype.com did I direct it here. It occurs to me that my messages
> through the list might similarly be getting rejected, so I probably
> should have just kept quiet and avoided setting off this particular
> explosion of conflicting opinions.
>=20
>> Suppose someone is writing something that they want to say is =
actually from a Klingon visiting Earth. Are these phrases known to him? =
Or are they just best guesses as to what he knows?
>=20
> Since you repeated the phrase "words Klingons would use", I know you
> have read it. Much of what you say would make sense to me if you
> thought it said "words Klingons might use", but it says "would". Don't
> you think that means a Klingon visiting Earth WOULD use those words?
>=20
>> Since this whole language is about pretending that Klingons exist and =
understanding how and why they say things, you *must* address these =
questions.
>=20
> That is a viewpoint I do not share. For me, the language is about the
> exercise of using an invented vocabulary and grammar to do everything
> a natural language can do, and about sharing that exercise with other
> people. I won't deny that the occasional bit of reference to a
> fictional culture can be fun, but I can't base my enjoyment of the
> language on trying to get into an alien mindset.
>=20
>> The day Okrand abandons the fiction of having Klingon sources is the =
day I quit.
>=20
> bIbupchugh jatlhwI' po'qu' wIghajHa' 'e' vIpaybej.
>=20
>> To reiterate: we need to know who *wrote* the pIqaDqoq in EuroTalk, =
whether Okrand vetted it, and exactly what the fictional context of the =
program is.
>=20
> Does the answer from qe'San satisfy you, or are you still worried that
> the CD-ROM might not be presenting itself with what you believe are
> the appropriate fantasy trappings?
>=20
> -- ghunchu'wI'
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Tlhingan-hol mailing list
> Tlhingan-hol@stodi.digitalkingdom.org
> http://stodi.digitalkingdom.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol
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<html><head></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; =
"><div>Throughout the existence of the language, we've always had to =
deal with multiple levels of reality. There's the Star Trek reality that =
things written in Klingon in movies and on the TV shows never make sense =
to anyone anyhow, and this is the root of Okrand's earlier suggestion =
that we don't know anything about the Klingon writing system. Behind =
that reality is the 20th and 21st century reality that the artistic =
director of these movies and TV shows has wanted the artistic freedom to =
write whatever he wants on his sets and computer displays without having =
to consult with some linguist to make the writing make any sense. Okuda =
demanded that Okrand never claim to know anything about the Klingon =
writing system.</div><div><br></div><div>Okrand came up with the =
romanized alphabet simply because if he didn't, then he couldn't very =
effectively write a dictionary for Klingon. Being romanized makes it =
convenient for us to use on this email =
list.</div><div><br></div><div>Meanwhile, he didn't just come up with a =
way to spell phonetic Klingon. He came up with triglyphs and diglyphs =
for some of the characters. So, when some remarkable fans came up with =
their own pIqaD, Okrand could never accept it because Okuda demanded =
that it, on principle, be rejected.</div><div><br></div><div>Those were =
the old days. It wasn't this way because not having a real pIqaD =
benefitted the fictional world of Klingons. It happened because it =
benefitted Okuda.</div><div><br></div><div>So, maybe Okuda doesn't care =
so much these days. Or maybe his word doesn't carry as much clout with =
Okrand as it once did. Or maybe the TalkNow! people just slipped this =
one in without mentioning it to Okrand and he didn't bother to notice =
it.</div><div><br></div><div>In any case, they paid Okrand to help them =
out on this, and in return he has declared that the product is now =
canon, and the product contains pIqaD used as an alphabet. Until Okrand =
makes a public statement that, oops, that isn't really written Klingon, =
then it really is canon.</div><div><br></div><div>I don't think it hurts =
the language. I don't think it hurts the fictional culture. It doesn't =
help us write stuff on this mailing list yet. It doesn't really do much =
but just give us one more thing to play with -- a thing many of us have =
already been playing with for years.</div><div><br></div><div>I won't be =
greatly upset if Okrand does come out and declare that pIqaD as shown in =
TalkNow! is not canon. It won't make a huge difference. I don't see why =
it should be upsetting to anyone if it actually is canon. Change =
happens. The geeks among us can become even geekier by becoming fluent =
at reading and writing pIqaD. We can climb even LOWER on the geek =
ladder. Nobody gets hurt. It's just stuff to do.</div><br><div>
<span class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-collapse: separate; =
color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; =
font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: =
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: =
auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-size: medium; =
"><div>pItlh</div><div>lojmIt tI'wI'nuv</div><div><br></div></span><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline">
</div>
<br><div><div>On Oct 4, 2011, at 10:48 PM, ghunchu'wI' 'utlh =
wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><div>On Tue, Oct 4, 2011 at 5:21 PM, David Trimboli <<a =
href=3D"mailto:david@trimboli.name">david@trimboli.name</a>> =
wrote:<br><blockquote type=3D"cite">From: ghunchu'wI' 'utlh =
[mailto:qunchuy@alcaco.net]<br></blockquote><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><blockquote type=3D"cite">If someone wants to point out =
that students of typography call the =
"tlh"<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><blockquote =
type=3D"cite">letter a trigraph because it is composed by abutting three =
otherwise separate<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><blockquote type=3D"cite">symbols, fine. But Mr. Everson's =
comment was more than a little =
patronizing.<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite">If *that* was =
the point of your response to him, maybe it should have been sent =
off-list.<br></blockquote><br>It initially WAS sent off-list. Only after =
my message was rejected by<br><a =
href=3D"http://evertype.com">evertype.com</a> did I direct it here. It =
occurs to me that my messages<br>through the list might similarly be =
getting rejected, so I probably<br>should have just kept quiet and =
avoided setting off this particular<br>explosion of conflicting =
opinions.<br><br><blockquote type=3D"cite">Suppose someone is writing =
something that they want to say is actually from a Klingon visiting =
Earth. Are these phrases known to him? Or are they just best guesses as =
to what he knows?<br></blockquote><br>Since you repeated the phrase =
"words Klingons would use", I know you<br>have read it. Much of what you =
say would make sense to me if you<br>thought it said "words Klingons =
might use", but it says "would". Don't<br>you think that means a Klingon =
visiting Earth WOULD use those words?<br><br><blockquote =
type=3D"cite">Since this whole language is about pretending that =
Klingons exist and understanding how and why they say things, you *must* =
address these questions.<br></blockquote><br>That is a viewpoint I do =
not share. For me, the language is about the<br>exercise of using an =
invented vocabulary and grammar to do everything<br>a natural language =
can do, and about sharing that exercise with other<br>people. I won't =
deny that the occasional bit of reference to a<br>fictional culture can =
be fun, but I can't base my enjoyment of the<br>language on trying to =
get into an alien mindset.<br><br><blockquote type=3D"cite">The day =
Okrand abandons the fiction of having Klingon sources is the day I =
quit.<br></blockquote><br>bIbupchugh jatlhwI' po'qu' wIghajHa' 'e' =
vIpaybej.<br><br><blockquote type=3D"cite">To reiterate: we need to know =
who *wrote* the pIqaDqoq in EuroTalk, whether Okrand vetted it, and =
exactly what the fictional context of the program =
is.<br></blockquote><br>Does the answer from qe'San satisfy you, or are =
you still worried that<br>the CD-ROM might not be presenting itself with =
what you believe are<br>the appropriate fantasy trappings?<br><br>-- =
ghunchu'wI'<br><br>_______________________________________________<br>Tlhi=
ngan-hol mailing list<br><a =
href=3D"mailto:Tlhingan-hol@stodi.digitalkingdom.org">Tlhingan-hol@stodi.d=
igitalkingdom.org</a><br>http://stodi.digitalkingdom.org/mailman/listinfo/=
tlhingan-hol<br></div></blockquote></div><br></body></html>=
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