[89942] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [Tlhingan-hol] 2 letter language code for Klingon?
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (lojmIt tI'wI'nuv)
Tue Oct 4 14:51:13 2011
From: lojmIt tI'wI'nuv <lojmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2011 14:50:44 -0400
In-Reply-To: <000001cc82c3$c2411320$46c33960$@trimboli.name>
To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org
Errors-To: tlhingan-hol-bounces@stodi.digitalkingdom.org
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Until very recently, I'd agree about Klingon writing and the =
semi-official nature of pIqaD, but I notice that the new TalkNow! app, =
which apparently was vetted by Okrand and includes stuff I hate, like =
{maj po} for "good morning", also includes pIqaD for all the words =
listed in "First Words" (the only section I've had time to look at yet). =
Note that "Please" is translated as {qatlhobneS}, (10 characters) =
printed in romanized text with a white background below 8 pIqaD =
characters on a blue background. The pIqaD character resembling an =
italicized uppercase "Y" representing {tlh} is indeed one character in =
Klingon writing from a canon source.
I'm not making this up. I'm just adapting to a changing universe. =
Apparently, Okuda doesn't object as loudly as he used to, or Okrand has =
decided to ignore the objection, or the TalkNow! project managed to pull =
off something that Okrand would have objected to, had he noticed it (or =
something else I haven't thought of yet).
In any case, this is apparently canon now, unless Okrand makes some kind =
of statement to the contrary. The pIqaD lettering system is now exactly =
as canon as the new words and terms shared with us in TalkNow!
pItlh
lojmIt tI'wI'nuv
On Oct 4, 2011, at 2:30 PM, David Trimboli wrote:
> From: ghunchu'wI' 'utlh [mailto:qunchuy@alcaco.net]
>>=20
>> On Tue, Oct 4, 2011 at 11:59 AM, Michael Everson =
<everson@evertype.com>
>> wrote:
>>> On 4 Oct 2011, at 16:37, lojmIt tI'wI'nuv wrote:
>>>=20
>>>> In Klingon, {tlh} is ONE letter.
>>>=20
>>> I'm fairly sure that you mean "the trigraph <tlh> refers to a single
> sound".
>>=20
>> Since lojmIt tI'wI'nuv is speaking about Klingon, what he said was
> obviously
>> exactly what he meant. See the introductory remarks to the lexicon in =
The
>> Klingon Dictionary: "Note that {ch}, {gh}, {ng}, and {tlh} are =
considered
>> separate letters."
>>=20
>> Whether or not other language references calls it a trigraph is
> unimportant,
>> and we do not hear those words.
>=20
> I disagree. The Klingon Dictionary does not describe the language with
> precision. It is written for Star Trek fans and laymen. Michael is =
looking
> at it from a linguist's point of view, and is describing it in more =
precise,
> and more accurate, terms.
>=20
> "tlh" is *not* a Klingon letter. It is three lower-case Latin letters
> forming a trigraph to represent a Klingon *sound*. There is a symbol =
that is
> sometimes used to represent the sound of "tlh," but will never be more =
than
> semi-official.
>=20
> Frequently people fail to distinguish between the system we use to =
write
> Klingon and the actual *sounds* of Klingon. This is why I always =
cringe when
> I see people create initialisms or acronyms with the Romanized system: =
you
> don't initialize by sounds; you initialize by written symbols. A =
Klingon
> using his native writing system would almost certainly not come up =
with the
> same initialism you do using our Latin letters.
>=20
> This is all a matter of terminology and inertia. As time goes on I see =
more
> and more value to examining the language *as a language*, and less as =
a
> tradition to follow. More precise terminology would help us. We don't =
have
> to abandon Okrand's works as the pillars of the language, but they =
shouldn't
> prevent us from understanding things on our own.
>=20
> --=20
> SuStel
> http://www.trimboli.name/
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Tlhingan-hol mailing list
> Tlhingan-hol@stodi.digitalkingdom.org
> http://stodi.digitalkingdom.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol
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<html><head></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; =
"><div>Until very recently, I'd agree about Klingon writing and the =
semi-official nature of pIqaD, but I notice that the new TalkNow! app, =
which apparently was vetted by Okrand and includes stuff I hate, like =
{maj po} for "good morning", also includes pIqaD for all the words =
listed in "First Words" (the only section I've had time to look at yet). =
Note that "Please" is translated as {qatlhobneS}, (10 characters) =
printed in romanized text with a white background below 8 pIqaD =
characters on a blue background. The pIqaD character resembling an =
italicized uppercase "Y" representing {tlh} is indeed one character in =
Klingon writing from a canon source.</div><div><br></div><div>I'm not =
making this up. I'm just adapting to a changing universe. Apparently, =
Okuda doesn't object as loudly as he used to, or Okrand has decided to =
ignore the objection, or the TalkNow! project managed to pull off =
something that Okrand would have objected to, had he noticed it (or =
something else I haven't thought of yet).</div><div><br></div><div>In =
any case, this is apparently canon now, unless Okrand makes some kind of =
statement to the contrary. The pIqaD lettering system is now exactly as =
canon as the new words and terms shared with us in =
TalkNow!</div><br><div>
<span class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-collapse: separate; =
color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; =
font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: =
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: =
auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-size: medium; =
"><div>pItlh</div><div>lojmIt tI'wI'nuv</div><div><br></div></span><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline">
</div>
<br><div><div>On Oct 4, 2011, at 2:30 PM, David Trimboli wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div>From: =
ghunchu'wI' 'utlh [mailto:qunchuy@alcaco.net]<br><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite">On Tue, Oct 4, =
2011 at 11:59 AM, Michael Everson <<a =
href=3D"mailto:everson@evertype.com">everson@evertype.com</a>><br></blo=
ckquote><blockquote type=3D"cite">wrote:<br></blockquote><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><blockquote type=3D"cite">On 4 Oct 2011, at 16:37, lojmIt =
tI'wI'nuv wrote:<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><blockquote type=3D"cite">In =
Klingon, {tlh} is ONE =
letter.<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><blockquote type=3D"cite">I'm fairly sure that you mean =
"the trigraph <tlh> refers to a =
single<br></blockquote></blockquote>sound".<br><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite">Since lojmIt =
tI'wI'nuv is speaking about Klingon, what he said =
was<br></blockquote>obviously<br><blockquote type=3D"cite">exactly what =
he meant. See the introductory remarks to the lexicon in =
The<br></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite">Klingon Dictionary: "Note =
that {ch}, {gh}, {ng}, and {tlh} are =
considered<br></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite">separate =
letters."<br></blockquote><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite">Whether or not =
other language references calls it a trigraph =
is<br></blockquote>unimportant,<br><blockquote type=3D"cite">and we do =
not hear those words.<br></blockquote><br>I disagree. The Klingon =
Dictionary does not describe the language with<br>precision. It is =
written for Star Trek fans and laymen. Michael is looking<br>at it from =
a linguist's point of view, and is describing it in more precise,<br>and =
more accurate, terms.<br><br>"tlh" is *not* a Klingon letter. It is =
three lower-case Latin letters<br>forming a trigraph to represent a =
Klingon *sound*. There is a symbol that is<br>sometimes used to =
represent the sound of "tlh," but will never be more =
than<br>semi-official.<br><br>Frequently people fail to distinguish =
between the system we use to write<br>Klingon and the actual *sounds* of =
Klingon. This is why I always cringe when<br>I see people create =
initialisms or acronyms with the Romanized system: you<br>don't =
initialize by sounds; you initialize by written symbols. A =
Klingon<br>using his native writing system would almost certainly not =
come up with the<br>same initialism you do using our Latin =
letters.<br><br>This is all a matter of terminology and inertia. As time =
goes on I see more<br>and more value to examining the language *as a =
language*, and less as a<br>tradition to follow. More precise =
terminology would help us. We don't have<br>to abandon Okrand's works as =
the pillars of the language, but they shouldn't<br>prevent us from =
understanding things on our own.<br><br>-- <br>SuStel<br><a =
href=3D"http://www.trimboli.name/">http://www.trimboli.name/</a><br><br><b=
r><br><br>_______________________________________________<br>Tlhingan-hol =
mailing =
list<br>Tlhingan-hol@stodi.digitalkingdom.org<br>http://stodi.digitalkingd=
om.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol<br></div></blockquote></div><br></bod=
y></html>=
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