[89572] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: chIjwI' tIQ bom: 'ay' wej
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Rohan Fenwick - QeS 'utlh)
Sun Sep 11 02:03:20 2011
From: Rohan Fenwick - QeS 'utlh <qeslagh@hotmail.com>
To: <tlhingan-hol@kli.org>
Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2011 15:56:25 +1000
In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.2.20110908072645.04f25fb0@flyingstart.ca>
Errors-to: tlhingan-hol-bounce@kli.org
Reply-to: tlhingan-hol@kli.org
ghItlhpu' Qov, jatlh:
> Oh and I'm adding snide comments in brackets. Slightly more stream of
> consciousness than usual.
Quite all right (and I'm sure they're all deserved)! Thank you, as usual.
jIH:
> pay' 'ev tIngDaq jIbej, 'ej pa'
Qov:
> {okay so the sense of suddenly looking isn't in the original}
Nope. {pay' bej} is my attempt to try and get at the meaning of "glance"
or "look"; as you say we don't really have a word with that sense.
jIH:
> chen DochHey[1] 'e' vIQub.
Qov:
> I thought IT (something/some kind of thing/something I couldn't quite
> recognize) took form
If that's how you understood it, that's great. I had real doubts.
jIH:
> bIQ qa' junlaw'taHmeH DochHey,
Qov:
> {yeah, I think it's become a Dochna', but it's still a DujHey.
Fair enough. Though I don't think he realises it could be a ship until the
later verse ("A sail! A sail!"), so I may have to leave off with DujHey
for the minute.
> It's really hard to get "as if" senses isn't it?
Oh yes. I'm sure most of us have run across much the same thing. I tend
to use -law' for them, but like you say it's still hard to get the "as if"
sense across to the reader. Someone (Krankor IIRC) actually did express to
Marc a desire for a way of doing subjunctive meanings during the wishlist
session at qep'a', to hearty agreement from the rest of us.
jIH:
> maHaghlaHbe', majachlaHbe',
Qov:
> We could not laugh, we could not scream ['ej Qochchugh vay' ...]
jIHaghqu'! vImughDI' 'e' vIQubbe'.
jIH:
> 'ej DeSwIj'e' vIchopchoHtaH,
Qov:
> And [what?!] I started to gnaw on my arm. [Hey Coleridge, hand and
> arm injuries are my schtick, back off].
DaH, qechvetlh DanIH DaneHmeH meq vIyaj. :P
> {The reason for the arm biting is absent in the Klingon. It's pretty
> awesome though. I'd love if you could make that clear.}
I'll do my best.
jIH:
> < vo'wI'! > jIjatlh. jIchuS.
Qov:
> As "sail" is, what's the word, metonym? anophor? representing the
> whole boat, perhaps having the protagonist say "DujHey" instead of
> vo'wI' would help.
Agreed, and I think this is the place for it.
jIH:
> jIjachDI' jIH, latlh'e' pay' pur,
Qov:
> While I cried out, another gasped [OH thank you! I had to look that
> one up. I didn't know we had it! Brief delay while I search my story
> for occurences of rechHa' to correct ...]
DuboQlaHmo' jIbel! Some of those bodily function verbs are a bit rusty
for me too. (I didn't recognise Hob in your last lut 'ay'Hom.)
jIH:
> tlhutlhqu'law'bogh nuvpu''e' rur;
Qov:
> They/it resembled quenched people [what?]
If I understand Coleridge right, what he's saying is that the gasping
crew (cf. pay' pur in the previous line) are gasping like thirsty people
who've just finished drinking. Don't know if that makes any more sense...
jIH:
> chongchoHmo' SomDaj, ngaD! >
Qov:
> {Ha, I now see my chong/chung error, but I leave it in so others may
> learn from my shame, and because it amuses me that it made little
> difference in the end}
Heh, yes, on occasion even an error in interpretation doesn't change
much.
jIH:
>meQlaw' tIng 'ev yu'eghmey'e',
Qov:
> The western waves seemed to burn. [ooh, are there rules for combining
> directions, or have you just varied the order for kicks?]
Just for funsies, really. In the newsgroup posting where Marc explains
the cardinal directions, he says that chan "east" always comes second in
a pair (tIng chan "southwest", 'ev chan "northwest", but not *chan tIng
or *chan 'ev), but either tIng 'ev or 'ev tIng is possible for "west".
jIH:
> maH jul je jojDaq Dochvetlh'e'
> pay' 'elchoHDI' QIbDaj.
Qov:
> {Okay, this is the only one that I think I really can't parse.
I wasn't over pleased with this construction either, so I'm not shocked
you had issues with it. Now that I look at it again (and I might change
the noun to DujHey, as per your suggestion), how about this, to fix up
the relationships between the nouns and the verb:
pay' DujHey'e', maH jul je joj
'elqu'choHDI' QIbDaj.
jIH:
> bejlaw'DI' meQbogh qabHey tIn,
Qov:
> When a giant burning face seemed to watch
> {Ah, combining your version and Colridge's I finally understand that
> the sun is the face. I think I would have gone "what who?"}
Do you think I might be better off with meQbogh jul qab tIn?
> {I still don't know why there were bars on the sun}
It's not really clear in the English either until the verse after next.
It's the ribs of the devil ship, I guess not properly covered by hull
planking, that make the sun look like it has bars over it.
jIH:
> cha' tu'lu'! latlh ghaH'a' Hegh'e'?
> Hegh'e', be' beq ghaH'a'?
Qov:
> {Heh, I read mate as loDnal, not as beq, but who is to say.}
I was tossing up yaS wa'DIch as well. English and its damn polysemy.
jIH:
> baS SuD rurqu' jIbDaj:
Qov:
> [close] Her hair was like copper
> {ha ha, at first I looked and thought "eh? Did I get SuD and Doq
> mixed up? but no, the first SuD metal that came to mind was oxidized
> copper}
Ha, odd, but fair enough!
jIH:
> luQujtaHvIS cha' beq;
Qov:
> Two crewmen played her. [rock paper scissors, I'm guessing]
Dice, actually, but I'm not even going to try to translate that directly.
I realise now luQujtaHvIS was wrong; there's only the two crew on the
spirit ship, Death and Life-in-Death, and they're playing against each
other. I like your suggestion of SuD. I'd like to try SuDchuqtaHvIS, but
it might be a bit of a stretch.
jIH:
> HIvje' rur tIqwIj 'ej 'oHvo'
> tlhutlhlaw' ghIjchu'ghach tIn!
Qov:
> My heart was like a cup and from it drank a great fear.
> {Ah okay, you'd think I'd get that, but that's twice the idea of
> drinking blood has been implied and I've missed it. Is it me? Could
> the word natlh help here? 'Iw tlhutlh ghIjchu'ghach tIn?}
{'Iw tlhutlh ghIjchu'ghach tIn} vIparHa'. vIchoH.
jIH:
> ram muD jeD, Hov Hurgh je DISIQ,
Qov:
> {Maybe puj for Hurgh, to avoid being unnecessarily psychadelic}
The psychedelia's part of the fun! But you make a good point, and I
think puj actually gets the meaning better.
jIH:
> vo'wI'majvo' pumqu'taH bIQ,
Qov:
> Water poured from our sails [yay!]
> {pumqu' gave me the idea that the woman had bestowed a supernatural
> gift of water-producing sails, not the idea of a drip. Were you
> writing a story I'd suggest choS bIQ for dew, but dunno if you can
> fit that in.}
If I just chuck out the -qu' for the reason you mention, choS bIQ fits
rather nicely:
ram muD jeD, Hov puj je DISIQ,
vo'wI'majvo' pumtaH choS bIQ,
Sechmo' wov DeghwI' mIn.
jIH:
> ghIq chan ghangwI'Daq nargh maSwov,
Qov:
> {clomb! I love that word. I didn't know it had held on until that
> recently. Also yold and shove (past of shave). }
Shove? Had no idea about that one...
jIH:
> SIq maS pIrmuS 'er'In.[4]
Qov:
> {I like that you have not preserved Coleridge's astronomical
> impossibility :-) }
Some things need not to be translated verbatim!
jIH:
>maH DungDaq leng maS tlha'bogh Hov;
Qov:
> [I love it when I look at an ambiguous -bogh clause and realize,
> "It's BETTER with the ambiguity" so don't mark anything]
I think this is the single greatest strength of the Klingon relative
clause: some unmarked clauses work perfectly no matter which noun is
interpreted as the head.
jIH:
> bIHmo' jI'IghchoHta'.
Qov:
> I am cursed because of them. [the stars? the faces? I would have used
> chaH even though the faces themselves are not people]
luq.
jIH:
> pumDI' chaH 'ugh, 'ach jatlh pagh Hugh,
Qov:
> As they fell they were heavy, but not one throat spoke [and now they
> are chaH?]
I had real pronoun problems in these couple of verses, since they talk
about the moment at which a person becomes a body and events at both
sides of that moment. Since they had to be dead before they fell, I
guess bIH is right here.
QeS 'utlh
