[86509] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: nom*i*nal*ize 2. to convert (an underlying clause) into a noun
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Mark J. Reed)
Mon Sep 14 13:55:44 2009
In-Reply-To: <4AAE7EFB.6020801@trimboli.name>
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 2009 13:54:00 -0400
From: "Mark J. Reed" <markjreed@gmail.com>
To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org
Errors-to: tlhingan-hol-bounce@kli.org
Reply-to: tlhingan-hol@kli.org
SuStel's analysis matches my thoughts. *{quvghach} is wrong because
it's redundant, something like "honorness". But *{tlhutlhghach} is
wrong because it would mean the same thing as *{tlhutlh} the
nonexistent noun.
I might use {-ghach} on bare stems if I had a need to translate into
Hol the slang habit of appending {-age} to words unnecessarily. "How
about some snackage to go with the gameage?"
On 9/14/09, David Trimboli <david@trimboli.name> wrote:
> Terrence Donnelly wrote:
>
>> What's interesting about these is that these are different types of
>> suffixes. From MO's description, it sounded like you couldn't use a
>> naked verb plus {-ghach} because some sort of time or state was
>> implied by {-ghach} that the naked verb didn't convey, so one had to
>> use one of the "aspectual" suffixes, such as {-taH} or {-qa'}. But
>> the only aspectual suffix in the above group is {-qa'}, and the
>> others are more like modal suffixes. So maybe the need for an
>> intervening suffix is more of a formal requirement than something
>> inherent in the meaning of {-ghach}.
>
> I look at {-ghach} as a nominalizer that creates a new word stem. TKD
> says something like (I don't have it with me), "It is not known if all
> verbs can be nouns, but verbs with suffixes can never be nouns." In
> other words, it is looking at words like {quv} and {naD} and saying that
> they may be verbs that have become nouns, but the verbs {quvHa'} and
> {naDHa'} (for instance) cannot ever be considered nouns. Using {-ghach}
> lets you do exactly what you could do with {quv} and {naD}, but with
> suffixes attached as well. {quv} the verb became {quv} the noun, but
> {quvHa'} the verb cannot become **{quvHa'} the noun, so you use {-ghach}
> to explicitly mark that that's what you're doing: {quvHa'ghach}.
>
> In theory, there could be a noun *{tlhutlh}, but there isn't one, and we
> know this explicity from KGT. But the existence of {-ghach} still allows
> you to work with the verb as if it had a noun counterpart anyway, but
> only for *new* noun stems. *{tlhutlh} is not a noun, so **{tlhutlhghach}
> is not a valid noun. It's considered marked, because **{tlhutlhghach}
> would equal *{tlhutlh}, which doesn't exist. And if it did exist, you
> wouldn't need **{tlhutlhghach}. And since {quv} and {naD} both exist as
> nouns, you don't need **{quvghach} or **{naDghach}. So {-ghach} is only
> used where you are adding verb suffixes to create a new word stem.
>
> --
> SuStel
> tlhIngan Hol MUSH
> http://trimboli.name/mush
>
>
>
>
--
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Mark J. Reed <markjreed@gmail.com>
