[85998] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: Klingon IPA chart
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (ghunchu'wI')
Fri Jun 26 08:26:40 2009
In-Reply-To: <BB9CE7CA-2480-4538-B63D-38DF81DD5F61@evertype.com>
From: "ghunchu'wI'" <qunchuy@alcaco.net>
Date: Fri, 26 Jun 2009 08:25:00 -0400
To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org
Errors-to: tlhingan-hol-bounce@kli.org
Reply-to: tlhingan-hol@kli.org
On Jun 26, 2009, at 6:07 AM, Michael Everson wrote:
>> And it's not a "slang" variant, it's a lazy and incorrect one. :)
>
> Laziness and incorrectness betoken "slang". I could say "informal".
Please don't. That too would imply it was acceptable in the right
context. However, KGT is quite clear on the {qUlegh} thing in
particular: it is "an error worthy of correction." That paragraph
is simultaneously descriptive and prescriptive. Some people do it,
and it's wrong. If you must label this variation as something other
than "incorrect", I suggest you call it "sloppy", a word Okrand used
on the previous page.
>> If you wish to represent childish speech, you should include the
>> voiced variant of {j},
>
> You mean "the fricative {zh} variant of {j}".
I actually had meant to type "the voiced 'sh' variant". I wanted to
use the appropriate IPA symbol, but I couldn't manage to copy it from
the {j} cell of your chart. It seems I ended up forgetting the 'sh',
but the meaning appears to have gotten through.
> you missed out
> "the alveolar {n} variant of syllable-final {ŋ}" and "the affricate
> {ch} variant of syllable-final {tlh}".
[n] and [tʃ] are already accounted for. Note that I also "missed
out" things like [b] and [l], because your chart already includes
them, thus there was no need to suggest that they be added.
> I think on reflection that there's only one way to know whether the
> distrubution if {ghl} is syllable-initial or initial/medial would be
> to know whether {chatlhoy} 'soupkin' (KGT p. 201) would be realized in
> Morskan as {chatsoy} or {chaghloy}. Okrand describes the distribution
> of {ghl} and {ts} in terms of morpheme boundaries,...
On the contrary, he describes them in terms of *syllable* boundaries.
>> KGT page 22 says that the variation depends on whether the sound is
>> at the beginning or end of a syllable, not of a word.
>
> See above.
No, see KGT page 22. Really. He even uses the word "phonological".
>> You've ignored the untrilled "r" in the consonant cluster {rgh} at
>> the end of some syllables. I mention it because your chart notes
>> seem to be striving for completeness of description.
>
> Can you point me to Okrand's description of this? I couldn't find it.
It's not described, but it is attested. For example, _Power Klingon_
includes the phrase {Hoch vor Dargh wIb} "Sour tea cures
everything." There's enough background noise that I can't really
tell whether the {r} in {vor} is realized as [r] or [ɹ], but it's
definitely [ɹ] in {Dargh}. (I think I'm using the symbols properly,
but don't assume I have any great certainty about them.)
> By the way, Okrand transcribes the voiceless [w] as {Hw} which would
> be [xw]; I have transcribed it as [ʍ] because that is what I have
> heard in actual use.
Where is this {Hw} mentioned?
-- ghunchu'wI'
