[85954] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: Klingon orthography (was: Okrand at qep'a')
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Michael Everson)
Thu Jun 25 05:02:00 2009
From: Michael Everson <everson@evertype.com>
In-Reply-To: <f60fe000906241646g6cdd4b9by4a2424cc66de74f2@mail.gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 25 Jun 2009 09:59:54 +0100
To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org
Errors-to: tlhingan-hol-bounce@kli.org
Reply-to: tlhingan-hol@kli.org
On 25 Jun 2009, at 00:46, Mark J. Reed wrote:
> First, I find the use of English-style capitalization quite
> distracting. I'm used to reading {q} and {Q} as separate letters, so
> have trouble recognizing {Qastahvis}.
I suspect then that you
> I agree that there's room for improvement in the system, but I don't
> necessarily agree that it's worth a reform effort.
Nevertheless I'm pleased you're putting up with me and discussing it.
> Nevertheless, my thoughts follow.
>
>> ===
>> In IPA this is
>>
>> [a b tʃ ɖ ɛ ɣ x ɪ dʒ l m n ŋ o pʰ q qχ r ʃ tʰ tɬ u v w j
>> ʔ]
>
> Though we would normally not transcribe things so narrowly as to
> indicate the aspiration on the voiceless stops, as indeed you didn't
> in your passage...
Overlooked it actually.
>> =A casing orthography would give:
>
> Cased IPA: Just Say No. :)
:-)
>> ===
>> In Americanist-type transcription one might render these:
>>
>> a b č d e ǧ h i j l m n ŋ o p q x r š t ł w v w y ʔ
>
> I think that both [ł] for {tlh} and [x] for {Q} are
> counterintuitive;
> you need some indication of the affrication. And my natural
> inclination is to ǧ as [dʒ] instead of [ɣ].
Well, Q is just a stop; it doesn't give an indication of affrication.
In a number of transliteration alphabets ǧ is [ɣ], though ġ is found
for instance, and other things; in this case one of the motivations
was to use the same diacritic throughout. As with all orthographies,
one gets used to it. (I'm not arguing for or against this one in
particular.) Happy with ŋ?
>> a b c d e g h i j l m n ŋ o p q ꝗ r s t ł u v w y ’
>
> Yeah, the ꝗ comes through as an empty box here.
As expected.
>> a b c ḍ e ǧ h i ǰ l m n ṅ o p k χ r ṣ θ tl u v w y ’
>
> If using <c> with no diacritic for {ch}, why do you need a diacritic
> for your {D} replacement?
This is Noble Savage's proposed orthography, not mine. I just reported
it.
>> a b c d e g h i j l m n ṅ o p k χ r s t tl u v w y ’
>
> Better. :)
>
> If replacing {q} with <k>, why not use <q> for {Q}?
It is a bit strange, isn't it?
> I could see θ for {tlh} - misleading though it is - but not for {t}.
> The "aspirated t" meaning of θ is not exactly au courant. :)
I think Noble Savage may have misunderstood about [tʰ].
> Also, the dot over the n is too subtle in this font; barely
> distinguishable from plain n.
You might be right about that in terms of a high-frequency phoneme
like {ng}
> My monographical suggestion would be this:
>
> a b c d e g h i j l m n ñ o p k q r s t þ u v w y ’
>
> Only two non-ASCII characters, both in Latin-1 and readily typed on
> most systems' "international" keyboard. They even have uppercase
> forms if you insist upon using case distinctions.
That's 10.3.4 in my PDF.
> Or, if you're not averse to digraphs:
>
> a b ch d e gh kh i j l m n ng o p q qh r s t th u v w y '
You've done a nice job there, replacing H with kh so as to avoid word-
boundary crashes with -h-. You've left S as s though... not sh. SO
you've got here either
Qastakhvis khoch dis, loslogh kholqhed chenmokh thingan khol yejkhad;
de’maj qengwi’ pothqu’ ’okh. Ghithmey le’, ghithmey moth je
ngas khoch jabbi’id, ’ej thingan kholqhed, thingan khol, thingan
nugh je qel. Qechmey’e’ ngasbogh nungbogh jabbi’id nudmekh ’ej
ghokhmekh nargh je ladwi’pu’ jabbi’idkhommey; mavuvchuqmekh ’ej
maja’chuqchu’mekh nargh. Kholqhed niv law’, qhonos moth niv pus:
khadchu’mekh qhonos ’okh kholqhed’e’. ’Okhdaq narghpa’
ghith, ’okh nudchu’ lath, ’ej ghith ghithwi’ sovbe’. Kholqhed
jikh »Yejquv Paqghom«, ’ej ’okh bos je »Dakh Khol Yejkhad«.
or
Qashtakhvish khoch dish, loshlogh kholqhed chenmokh thingan khol
yejkhad; de’maj qengwi’ pothqu’ ’okh. Ghithmey le’, ghithmey
moth je ngash khoch jabbi’id, ’ej thingan kholqhed, thingan khol,
thingan nugh je qel. Qechmey’e’ ngashbogh nungbogh jabbi’id
nudmekh ’ej ghokhmekh nargh je ladwi’pu’ jabbi’idkhommey;
mavuvchuqmekh ’ej maja’chuqchu’mekh nargh. Kholqhed niv law’,
qhonosh moth niv push: khadchu’mekh qhonosh ’okh kholqhed’e’.
’Okhdaq narghpa’ ghith, ’okh nudchu’ lath, ’ej ghith
ghithwi’ shovbe’. Kholqhed jikh »Yejquv Paqghom«, ’ej ’okh
bosh je »Dakh Khol Yejkhad«.
Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/
