[83914] in tlhIngan-Hol
Translation help needed
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Arizhel@klingon-empire.org)
Thu Jan 10 08:42:38 2008
From: <Arizhel@klingon-empire.org>
To: <tlhingan-hol@kli.org>
Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 08:40:50 -0500
In-Reply-To: <4785CAFE.4020500@trimboli.name>
Errors-to: tlhingan-hol-bounce@kli.org
Reply-to: tlhingan-hol@kli.org
Greetings,
I am currently working on a project for The Klingon Empire. We
want to use words to describe how the Houses in The Empire and what the
status of the House is for the voting rights in The High Council. The
current tier system is not labeled clearly at this time. I was wondering if
I could get some assistance in this matter. I have tried to do the best I
can with my resources at hand. If you have questions concerning what I have
sent; you can contact me via this e-mail address.
Here is our current tier system and the one we would like to use:
As the work on the House Handbooks progress there is something that needs
attention before the work continues.
Here are the three "tiers"/"categories" of houses currently:
Registered House with a Seat: Meaning Houses that are registered with The
Empire and have the members to obtain a voting seat on the High Council.
Registered House without a Seat: - Meaning Houses that are registered with
The Empire and DO NOT have the members to obtain a voting seat on the High
Council. These Houses must Vote via the Councilor at Large.
Unregistered: Meaning all Houses that have not turned in the Application to
the 'oDwI' or those members of The Empire that do not belong to a House.
Therefore they must Vote via the Councilor at Large.
The change is needed so the House can be defined in an eloquent manner.
Therefore by using the Klingon Language The Empire embraces the Klingon
Heritage.
tuqDIb - A registered House on The Empire that has a Voting seat on the High
Council.
tuq'obe' - A registered House on The Empire that does not meet the
requirements to have a voting seat on the High Council. This House must
place its vote through the Councilor at Large.
tuqHutlh - A member of The Empire that has a House but that House has not
been registered with The Empire or a member of The Empire that does not
belong to a House; neither has voting rights in the High Council. This House
or Member must place his/her vote through the Councilor at Large.
Here is the list of resources and support for choosing the Klingon wording.
Definitions and Resource for Klingon Words:
Resource - Star Trek Klingon for the Galactic Traveler by Marc Okrand and
Star Trek The Klingon Dictionary by Marc Okrand
tuq - tribe, house, ancestral unit (n) page 228 Galactic Traveler
DIb - right, privilege (n) page 214 Galactic Traveler
'obe' - order, group officially recognized by government (n) page 232
Galactic Traveler
Hutlh - lack, be without, not have (v) page 216 Galactic Traveler
Hom was a suggestion but after research found it not to be fitting. If a new
member that is new to fandom reads the definition it could be interpreted
incorrectly.
Hom - weakling, runt, scrawny one, skinny one (n) (slang) page 216 Galactic
Traveler
Hom - bone (n) page 88 The Klingon Dictionary
Hom - diminutive page 32 The Klingon Dictionary
Please feel free to dissect it as you see fit. I in the future when I the
money to spend I will be joining your site. I want to learn more into this
fabulous language.
HoD Arizhel sutai-Reshtarc (Captain Arizhel vestai-Reshtarc)
od'wI to the High Council
The Empire - http://www.klingon-empire.org/
-----Original Message-----
From: tlhingan-hol-bounce@kli.org [mailto:tlhingan-hol-bounce@kli.org] On
Behalf Of David Trimboli
Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2008 2:36 AM
To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org
Subject: Re: Topic (was: Specifying distance traveled)
Alan Anderson wrote:
> On Jan 9, 2008, at 6:50 PM, David Trimboli wrote:
>
>> Here's what I think is a pretty simple example of a topic in use:
>>
>> Qel'e' SID vor ghaH
>> As for the doctor, he cured the patient.
>
>
> It's simple, yes, but is it correct? The topic suffix doesn't move
> the subject of the sentence to the front. I can't see expressing
> the idea as anything but {SID vor Qel'e'}. (Maybe you can supply
> supporting context that would make this example seem less broken, but
> it would probably cease to be simple at that point.)
{Qel'e'} isn't the subject of this sentence, {ghaH} is, all on its own,
just as validly as if the sentence were simply {SID vor ghaH}.
I used a pronoun to make the sentence more natural, but it could just as
easily have been
Qel'e' SID vor Qel
This would be no different than saying, for instance,
HoDvaD Duj ra'choH HoD
perhaps implying that the captain had selfish motives in taking command
of the ship. Or even
QelvaD SID vor Qel
implying the same of the doctor curing his patient. This sort of
redundancy occurs in Klingon and is appropriate. The header noun isn't a
migrated subject; it plays a distinct semantic role in the sentence,
just as any other noun with a type 5 suffix on it.
> The whole idea of "header topics" makes me uneasy anyway. {-'e'} is
> a syntactic marker, identifying the role of the noun in a sentence.
> Most of the discussion of putting it on a "header" noun uses
> examples where that noun doesn't really *have* a clear role in the
> sentence -- and saying "the role is the _topic_" doesn't help me.
> Most of the time I see it used here, it's more the "topic of
> conversation" rather than anything to do with the action of the
> sentence.
"Topic of conversation" seems an apt description to me; nothing wrong
with that.
> The one relevant canon example I can think of is a comparative
> construction, which doesn't follow the regular rules of word order in
> the first place, making it incompletely suitable as a pattern for
> general usage.
There are many examples of {-'e'} indicating a topic, but none of them
are absolutely unambiguous. However, using {-'e'} in this way precisely
follows the rules in TKD.
3.3.5
-'e' topic
This suffix emphasizes that the noun to which it is attached is the
topic of the sentence.
6.1
Any noun in the sentence indicating something other than subject or
object comes first, before the object noun.
Each of those rules has a "yeah, but" attached to it, but they still
stand as correct rules. One of their consequences is that a noun
indicating the topic of a sentence which isn't a subject or object
becomes a header.
This is not the sort of construction I'd expect to see a whole lot of in
regular usage. It certainly should NOT be used as a catch-all
I-couldn't-think-of-anyplace-else-to-put-it crutch. It should ONLY be
used to indicate exactly what the rules say it is: a non-subject,
non-object topic.
It's at LEAST as valid as, say, picking up on a description of English
grammar in TKD, combining it with a bizarre and singular example, and
insisting that Klingon can do "where" relative clauses. :)
SuStel
Stardate 8025.4
--
Practice the Klingon language on the tlhIngan Hol MUSH.
http://trimboli.name/klingon/mush.html
