[620] in tlhIngan-Hol
Relative clauses; passive of verb; etc
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU)
Wed Apr 21 07:52:52 1993
Errors-To: tlhIngan-Hol-request@village.boston.ma.us
Errors-To: tlhIngan-Hol-request@village.boston.ma.us
Errors-To: tlhIngan-Hol-request@village.boston.ma.us
Errors-To: tlhIngan-Hol-request@village.boston.ma.us
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Errors-To: tlhIngan-Hol-request@village.boston.ma.us
Errors-To: tlhIngan-Hol-request@village.boston.ma.us
Reply-To: "Klingon Language List" <tlhIngan-Hol@village.boston.ma.us>
From: A.APPLEYARD@fs1.mt.umist.ac.uk
To: "Klingon Language List" <tlhIngan-Hol@village.boston.ma.us>
Date: 21 Apr 93 10:12:14 GMT
(1) More about relative clauses. I am sorry if I was not clear the previous
time. What I meant was this:-
TKD 6.2.3 says: `qippu'bogh yaS` = "the officer who hit him', `yaS
qippu'bogh` = "the officer who he hit". Clear so far. But:-
(a) What if there are two or more nouns in the relative clause? E.g. does
`qama' qippu'bogh yaS` mean "the officer who hit the prisoner" or "the
prisoner who the officer hit"? How to distinguish these two meanings?
(b) If the relative clause can be embedded anywhere in the main clause in
the role of an adjective, how to tell easily whether accompanying
prepositional phrases etc belong to the main clause or the subordinate clause?
Like Klingon, Swahili verbs conjugate with multiple suffixation including a
relative suffiix. Swahili avoids type (a) ambiguity by putting the verb with
the relative suffix straight after its antecedent (= the noun in the main
clause that it refers to). But it is easy to write an English relative
sentence that couldn't be thus rendered into Swahili without (separating the
relativized verb from its antecedent or getting a string of words out of
place), and they had to resort to saying two simple sentences in this case,
until a separate European-style relative pronoun `amba` came into use.
But if two simple sentences are used instead, as Nahuatl (= Aztec) always
has to, there can be multiple ambiguity as to which pronoun in the 'relative'
clause refers to which noun or pronoun in the previous clause.
In English "who" or "which" clearly marks the start of the relative clause.
As it is also clearer if the main clause is finished before the relative
clause starts, it should be possible to bring the antecedent to the end of the
main clause and the start of the relative clause. If these are pairs of
simple sentences to turn into a relative construction:- (v1 v2 are verbs)
TKD my idea
W v1 X; X v2 Z -> W v1 X v2-bogh Z -> W v1 X v2-bogh Z
W v1 X; Y v2 X -> W v1 Y v2-bogh X -> W v1 X v2-P-bogh Y
W v1 X; W v2 Z -> W v2-bogh Z v1 Z -> W v2-bogh Z v1 X
W v1 X; Y v2 W -> Y v2-bogh W v1 X -> W v2-P-bogh Y v1 X
Here type (a) ambiguity is resolved by insisting on the verb being the first
word in the relative clause, with aid of a new verb suffix (here represented
by `P`) which makes the verb passive, i.e. converting "X" into "be X'ed by" to
swop the subject with the object without changing the meaning.
Type (b) ambiguity can be removed by bringing the antecedent and with it the
relative clause to the end of the main clause:-
X v1-P W v2-bogh Z and X V1-p W v2-P-bogh Y.
How to translate e.g. "I found the phasers in the room <in which> the
officer had been shot."? i.e. the relative pronoun has a preposition.
(2) Another use of the passivizer suffix would be to distinguish passive
infinitive from active infinitive, e.g. `bachghach vineH'` = "I want to shoot"
from `bach-P-ghach vineH` = "I want to be shot".
(3) I wish there were separate suffixes for "agent" and "instrument", e.g.
"typist" and "typewriter", not just one suffix `-wi'` for both.
(4) Time clauses. The type (b) ambiguity for relative clauses holds here
also. And how to say e.g. "five days after X happens"?
(5) How to turn an adjective(-verb) into an adverb ("V" -> "V-ingly")?
(6) The construction `A V law' B V puS` for "A is more V than B is" seems
awkward, and may annoy B if B's V-ness is not small but merely a bit less than
A's; and how to say e.g. "the taller man" without getting too wordy? I would
have preferred a word, say `E`, which is an independent verb meaning "exceed,
outdo", and can also be used as a suffix: `B V-E A`; or `F` = "falls short
of": `A V-F B`.
(7) The FAQ says that verbs can't have both an indeterminate subject (-lu')
and an ability suffix (-laH), but e.g. "one can kill prisoners?" (TKD 6.2.5)
might be rendered as `qama'pu' HoHlu' net ta'laH` = "prisoners one.kills one
is_able_to". But TKD introduction says "when Klingon is actually spoken these
rules are sometimes broken", and often in actual use likely both suffixes
would be put on one verb: `qama'pu' HoHlaHlu'` is shorter and clearer.
(8) I am surprised not to find a separate distinct verb suffix for "must".
(9) How to translate indirect questions?
(10) How to say "to cause" as a separate word. Do I use `moH` as a separate
word despite its homophony with `moH` = "be ugly"?
