[316] in tlhIngan-Hol
wa'
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU)
Mon May 18 12:54:10 1992
Errors-To: tlhIngan-Hol-request@village.boston.ma.us
Reply-To: "Klingon Language List" <tlhIngan-Hol@village.boston.ma.us>
From: Mark E. Shoulson <shoulson@ctr.columbia.edu>
To: "Klingon Language List" <tlhIngan-Hol@village.boston.ma.us>
Date: Mon, 18 May 92 10:09:09 -0400
In-Reply-To: Michael Everson's message of Fri, 15 May 92 17:23:41 GMT <92051516
>Errors-To: tlhIngan-Hol-request@village.boston.ma.us
>From: Michael Everson <EVERSON@IRLEARN.UCD.IE>
>It is hard to do this sort of thing. I'd love to have this one corrected,
>however. I have a friend in Estonia who a) loves Metallica and b) loves Star
>Trek and Klingons. (They have seen both Classic ST and STTNG for years in
>English with Finnish subtitles!). So... comment is invited.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
...if you say so....
Well, I have only one or two things to say that struck me in reading your
translation (unfortunately, I'm not a Metallica fan, so the song and its
melody are unknown to me).
>"wa'" "One"
> --metalIqa ghItlhta' --by Metallica
Hey, nice indication of authorship. Like it.
>pagh'a' vIqawlaHbe'law'taH 1 I can't remember anything
Your comment on this line:
>l. 1. I don't know of anything that prevents double negatives in Klingon.
Neither do I, but that doesn't mean we should use them. Rather, I don't
think we should use them to mean anything other than a positive. Use of
double-negs as negatives is so counter-logical that I'd rather assume
things worked the logical way, absent evidence of the other idiom.
"pagh vIqawlaHbe'" really seems to me to be saying "I can't remember
nothing", in a literal sense. I have no more backing for my reading than
you have for yours, what are other opinions. Incidentally, "pagh'a'"?
Interesting concept, one that doesn't translate well into English (which
is, or course, where the fun lies: using one language to do things another
has trouble with). If you wanted something more obvious, there's always
"pagh'e'", but this is cool.
>vIt naj ghap ghu'vam vISovbe' 2 Can't tell if this is true or dream
I can live with "naj" as a noun too, and it would work the way you're using
it. However, your sentence's syntax seems to be lacking to me. Let's look
only at the first 4 words: "truth dream noun-Xor this-situation". Now, you
can't mean "this situation is truth xor a dream", because there's no verb
(or pronoun acting as one). The only construction that works is noun-noun
construction, which will yield "the truth's xor dream's this-situation",
which makes no sense. You mean to say "I don't know if this situation is
truth or dream," right? Well, you need to have a *sentence* as the object
of "Sov", not some noun-noun construction if you want that (and, of course,
an "'e'" pronoun). How about "vIt ghu'vam pagh naj 'e' vISovbe'"? Bleah,
one syllable too many.
>porghwI'Daq jIjachnISqu'bej 3 Deep down inside, I feel to scream
I disagree that "porgh" qualifies as sentient. I mean, sure, your body
uses language, but only under the control of some nebulous, sentient
persona or "soul". Even in English, we refer to a dead body as "it", not
as "he" or "she". *People* are sentient, their "minds" are, but their
bodies (when discussed separately) are not. Would you say "nujwI'", but
"ghichwIj", just because my mouth happens to be more intimately involved in
the production of speech?
>naQbe'bej porghHomqoqwI' 7 That there's not much left of me
Oooh, love that "-qoq"!
>DaH Dat mob 'oy'na'vam'a' 8 Nothing is real but pain now
Hmmm, very nice translation, indeed. The suffix-ordering should be
"'oy''a'na'vam", though.
>tlhuH vIvoQ Hegh vItultaHvIS 9 Hold my breath as I wish for death
>vemmoHneS, joHwI' 10 Oh please God, wake me
Was going to hassle you about the missing "HI-" (makes more sense than
"cho-"), but clipping is quite reasonable.
>jItu'qa' jIpIHlaHbe' 13 But can't look forward to reveal
>jIyInqa' jItullaHbe' 14 Look to the time when I'll live
By rights, we have no reason to believe these verbs can be used without
"'e'"; I suspect you really need it. But I'd bet that a Klingon poet would
drop "'e'"'s as part of poetic license pretty quick.
>mejpu'mo' qo'vam, wa' jIH, wa' 21 Now this world is gone I'm just one
>choQaH, joHwI' 22 Oh God, help me
"HI-" works better than "cho-".
>HurghDaq 25 Darkness
>qama'Hey'a' jIH 26 Imprisoning me
Wow, really nice capturing of the imagery!
>neH Hurgh vIlegh 27 All that I see
Might make more sense as "Hurgh neH vIlegh".
>porghDaq jInogh 31 Trapped in myself
Nice.
>bIghHa' 'oH porghHeywI' 32 Body my holding cell
Welllll, you should have an "-'e'" suffix on "porghHeywI'" (like the
"-Hey"). Poetic license can probably handle this one as well.
>yavtlhIl-- 33 Landmine
Um, "thlIl" as noun is just "mineral"; as a verb it's "mine", but
presumably in the sense of "dig stuff out of the ground". "yavjorwI'" is
better semantically, but too many syllables. Can't find anything better,
sorry.
Your inversion actually comes through just fine to my eye/ear. Sort of
setting the tone with "landmine", then saying "it took my legs/arms/etc".
Works dandy, very little invocation of poetic license required here.
>quvwIj tlhappu' 39 Taken my soul
Fair amount of support in Terran languages for using "honor" for "soul".
Shows up a few times that way in the Bible; Biblical Hebrew did that now
and then.
Basically, a good job. majQa'!
~mark
