[2615] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: tlhIngan Hol qun vIwam - an article
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU)
Tue Jan 18 18:36:44 1994
Reply-To: "Klingon Language List" <tlhIngan-Hol@klingon.East.Sun.COM>
From: Will Martin <whm2m@uva.pcmail.virginia.edu>
To: "Klingon Language List" <tlhIngan-Hol@klingon.East.Sun.COM>
Date: Tue, 18 Jan 94 12:38:52 EST
On Jan 18, 3:32am, Nick NICHOLAS wrote:
> Subject: Re: tlhIngan Hol qun vIwam - an article
Thanks for the feedback, Nick. I already have received some of these
comments from others and will adjust the article accordingly. Meanwhile:
> =During ST3, Marc Okrand was hired...
>
> I thought it was ST2? (Barron posted on this.)
Okrand was hired during ST2 to help out with the Vulcan. It was a chance
meeting with a friend while he was waiting on a delayed schedule on another
project in that area that brought him into Paramount's consciousness.
Meanwhile, his first work on Klingon was ST3. He wrote the first edition of
TKD at this time. The second edition came with ST5 and ST6.
...
> ghuy'cha' and ghay'cha' are one word.
You say that with authority. Curious that TKD lists it in two places
with two different spellings and no literal translation in either setting. If
it is the same word on both pages 58 and 178, it is the ONLY word repeated on
both pages. I suspect you have made an inaccurate presumption, unless someone
has talked this over with Okrand or Matlh.
> =It should be noted that
> =the pronunciation difference between this {cha} (with no glottal stop) and
> =all the other {cha'}s (with glottal stops) escapes me.
>
> Hopefully, it no longer does, after the plethora of mail you received after
> saying this. There are some quite *clear* examples of this distinction
> on the tapes; Marc makes a point of distinguishing, if I recall, between
> ghuy'cha' and ghuycha on CK.
Sorry, guy. You are COMPLETELY missing my point. I well know the
difference between a glottal stop and the absence of one. I'm remarking that
there seems to be no difference in the pronunciation of the two IN THIS
MOVIE. Okrand made up the glottal stops as an element of the language after
these scenes were public. It was a good addition to the language, but it is
the only aspect of the vocabulary taken from this early cannon that is not
consistent between TKD and the cannon. In TKD, some of the words in ST1 end
in glottal stops and some do not. In ST1, there is no difference in
pronunciation between those with or without glottal stops.
I will work on the wording of the article to make this distinction more
clear, since it obviously confused you and you are a very reasonable person
with a strong background in Klingon. Again, your comments help improve the
article.
> = Note the beginning glottal stop in {'eH}. There are no directions in
> =TKD for pronouncing a glottal stop at the beginning of a syllable.
>
> Oh. Was it this you were getting the mail for instead? In either case,
> I do think speculations on how to pronounce Klingon don't properly belong
> in this article, but in another, to be written by some phonetician or
> other (if, after the tapes, this is still necessary).
A later draft of this article accepts this point. I still remark on it,
but only to point out that English regularly begins open vowels with a
glottal stop. I add this because I think it is interesting and I think it
will be interesting to those who may be audience for the article.
> =I say this from a personal dislike for the {j} sound in Klingon...
>
> I also don't think this belongs in the article, but that's just me...
No. I have rethought this and feel that I was out of line. I may well
think that {j} is the whimpiest phoneme in the language and the most poorly
chosen to be included in the set, but there it is and my opinion on the
matter is worth less than the ink that would have been wasted on it.
> = Mr. Okrand has remarked several times that he felt this was not a
>
> Dr, if you please.
I wondered about that. I knew that his training included a Doctorate,
but TKD doesn't say, "by Dr. Marc Okrand", and when I met him at a public
function, he was not introduced as "Dr. Marc Okrand". I don't remember him
being introduced with the "Dr." on either of the tapes, though I have not
checked on this. It apparently matters little to him, and so it matters
little to me. Still, if it makes the general populace happier, I'll change it
to Dr.
> = I've noticed that the seemingly random capitalization...
> This has already been addressed a hundredfold,...
I'll let your degree of exaggeration pass for now. It has been explained
to me after that draft of the article that Okrand sort of almost followed
conventions set up for notating pronunciation. There was a lot of
qualification mixed into the explanation, so I don't feel TOO bad for calling
it "random capitalization". Anyway, the final draft may prove more to your
liking.
...
> Unfortunately, as I've been finding, phonology and OSV are the *only*
> two areas in which Klingon is even remotely alien; everything else in its
> grammar is quite boring typologically. Klingon is in many ways a
> disappointment; there's been huge opportunity missed here for something
> *really* interesting. I really, *really* hope that any other Trek language
> designers have a look at some typology texts before churning out yet
> another ho-hum lingo.
>
> Nick Nicholas, Breather
You worry about being flamed for a tactfully placed comment about
curiosity over homosexuality among Klingons, and then you write THAT? Given
the conditions under which Okrand was writing the language (with subtitles
being changed after scenes were shot and English spoken scenes being redubbed
in Klingon with English subtitles literally matching the lip movements, and
off the cuff being told to translate "To be or not to be,") I hardly think
Marc Okrand deserves that kind of casual slam. He was directed to come up
with a language that met the description "gutteral" in one script and had the
machismo of a Japanese spaghetti western, according to one director's
suggestion. I think he more than fulfilled his contract.
And while we are correcting things, it is OVS, not OSV, unless you are
referring to Krankor's very interesting, but unproven theory about the use of
{-jaj} in toasts. Also, I've read on this list that OSV is more common than
OVS, though neither is unique. In general, Okrand has attempted to shift
between conventions common to other languages in a way to make it
inconsistent with any of them whenever possible, while retaining the ability
to convey meaning. He has also worked very hard to keep any cannon over which
he has influence to be consistent with TKD, repeatedly modifying the language
to take in exceptions created by the movie-making process.
Perhaps you would like to try your hand at developing a more interesting
language? Perhaps you would like to try to accumulate the following that
Klingon has oddly collected? The primary problem there is that language and
culture are tightly connected, and the Klingons have acquired a more
interesting fictional culture than most other fictional groups. Other
interesting fictional groups lack the level of development of language that
Klingon has oddly received. It is a one-two punch that gives Klingon a
popularity outsiders do not understand, in a way similar to the bumper
sticker I once saw:
"Harley Davidson. If I have to explain it, you wouldn't understand."
-- charghwI'
