[1974] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: Power Klingon
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU)
Wed Nov 10 08:17:00 1993
Reply-To: "Klingon Language List" <tlhIngan-Hol@klingon.East.Sun.COM>
From: Nick Nicholas <nsn@mullian.ee.mu.OZ.AU>
To: "Klingon Language List" <tlhIngan-Hol@klingon.East.Sun.COM>
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1993 00:10:10 +1100 (GMT)
In-Reply-To: <9310130205.AA21486@startide.ctr.columbia.edu> from "tlhIngan-Hol-
request@klingon.east.sun.com" at Oct 12, 93 10:05:32 pm
To tlhIngan-Hol-request@klingon.east.sun.com respond I thus:
#Sure enough, I managed to get a copy of the
#new _Power Klingon_ (ISBN 0-671-87975-8). You have to check it out.
I've finally gotten around to getting a copy of said item today, and got more
than one chuckle out of it. Made me think differently about how to approach
the language in some ways...
#More interesting to me is the blessing of "double
#objects", where one would expect "-vaD" and a direct object, as in the
#sentences from the tape "ghIchwIj DabochmoHchugh, ghIchlIj qanob" ("If you
#shine my nose, I'll give you your nose", a proverb meaning "Don't try to
#bullshit me.")
Yes, this is a fascinating turn of events. Presumably, there'd be some pragmati
c
convention, motivating the verb-prefix object being either indirect or direct.
#Another interesting construction I haven't fully analyzed: "cha'vatlh ben
#HIq" is given for "two-century-old ale". This seems to be a use of "ben" a
#little beyond what we know; I might have understood "cha'vatlh ben HIq
#vItlhutlh" as "I drank ale 200 years ago" (and it probably means that
#too).
Still having no access to TKD *sigh*, I'll have to wait on this one, but it
sounds like a kludge solution. (Don't think of it as a kludge; think of it
as liberal exploitation of limited grammatical resources...)
#there was a recent incident of a tourist reversing two words of the toast
#(jachjaj 'IwlIj, perhaps?) and inadvertently insulting all prior and
#several subsequent generations of the families of those present, and the
#tourist's pieces were still being collected. I guess Okrand wants to
#remind us who's still in charge.
remind me when to be impressed... ;)
#There may be evidence for an independent ?nga' root for "to mate" in the
#insult "targhlIj yInga'??? yIruch" ("go and mate with your targ"), but I'm
#not sure I heard the word right.
Wasn't this a veS Qo'noS word? I forget.
#It seems from phrases used that a feeling I expressed earlier about the
#"-neS" suffix was on the right track: that it expresses respect for the
#*person(s) addressed* no matter who the subject of the sentence is. I see
#this in sentences like "po'neS baHwI'pu'lI'" (your gunners are skillful,
#your honor). Your mileage may vary.
Well, not necessarily. Referent honorifics in Japanese can pay respect to
the honoured person *to do with* the subject, rather than the subject itself,
if it's inanimate. Thus "Your bed is green" could be expressed in Japanese
as the equivalent of "SuDneS Qong", where the neS Implies that the bed is
yours. Definite evidence for neS being an addressee honorific would come if
the addressee was an object, which i don't think happens in the examples.
But my gut feeling is that you're right.
#Another sentence I wondered about was "pu'HIchwIj
#Daleghpu'", which is translated "Have you seen my phaser?" I'd have
#expected "pu'HIchwIj Daleghpu''a'".
This sounds like an out-and-out error, but since it's now canon, I wonder
how we account for the omission of 'a'? Maybe it's optional, but if so,
under what circumstances?
#There is finally a "two-armed" relative clause, but Okrand doesn't use the
#"-'e'" prefix as we do, indicating that it is at least optional (he's
#communicated that it was okay, though, hasn't he?). The proverb is "Hov
#ghajbe'bogh ram rur pegh ghajbe'bogh jaj" (a day without secrets is like a
#night without stars). Again, this is a proverb, and thus possibly
#anomolous.
Maybe, though I'd expect the unmarked (no 'e') case for relative clauses to
be that in which the subject was the clause referent.
#There's a whole section on Klingon mating/courtship ettiquette that must be
#heard to be believed. I'll leave it at that.
As I've already been told by another Klingonist here, it could have been
better. There have been some impressive tales of courtship ritual in TNG
(then again, wi'orv has been suspected of being out of touch with current
Klingon culture...)
#We finally have a better example for "I'm lost" than that confusing "naDev
#jIHtaHbogh vISovbe'". The new translation is "DaqwIj vISovbe'". Isn't
#that *far* cleaner?
I find it curious that Okrand dispensed with "yIleSHa'", going for the more
prosaic "yIleS 'e' yImev". -Ha' has some unclear semantics to it, and I
think Okrand has missed the opportunity to do something really novel, and
linguistically realistic in its complexity, of having a widely used -Ha'
with a difficult-to-pin-down meaning. (That's what *real* languages call
complexity, and let's face it, nothing in Klingon is stupefyingly complex,
but for the eccentric phonology.)
#"'uSDaj chop chev" for "bite his arm off".
#Intersting use of "chop" *and* "chev" for "biting off". I'm not sure what
#the unclipped version is.
Evidence for verb - verb composition? I'd dearly welcome it if it was, but
this is Clipped Klingon. Still, it's canon, and it indicates *something*.
That question on what the unclipped for it is is intriguing...
#There's also "Don't lick my forehead" which
#sounds a lot like "QuchwIj DroSQo'", which represents, if I hear aright, an
#innovation in Klingon words, as "?DroSQo'" starts with a consonant cluster.
I suspected when I read this, and wasn't disconfirmed on listening, that the
word is probably DeroSQo' (cf. tera'ngan, pronounced tra'ngan)
#Enjoy, folks! More responses tomorrow, from a responsive terminal...
'S been a month, Mark ;)
I have a sneaking suspicion this is the last tape Schuster and Simon will
produce. Anything more than this tape would only be useful for the hardcore.
Don't rule out the impulse buyer, though. Aforementioned budding Klingonist
said *she'd* buy Shakespeare in Klingon for sure, irrespective of whether
she could actually read it.
Speaking of which, congrats on your tour de force with Jonah, Mark. I'll go
through it with interest and a fine tooth comb -- when I get TKD back ;)
===
Momenton senpretende paseman mi retenis kaj # NICK NICHOLAS. Melbourne Uni,
kultis kvazaux & Australia. Now with moustache.
senhorlogxan elizeon # nsn@mullian.ee.mu.oz.au
(Dume: & >nsn@krang.vis.mu.oz.au<
[Victor Sadler, _Memkritiko_ 90] # nsn@mundil.cs.mu.oz.au
