[1804] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: the mysterious DOUBLE PREDICATE CAUSITIVES
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU)
Thu Oct 21 01:44:49 1993
Reply-To: "Klingon Language List" <tlhIngan-Hol@klingon.east.sun.com>
From: DSTRADER@delphi.com
To: "Klingon Language List" <tlhIngan-Hol@klingon.east.sun.com>
Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1993 01:22:15 -0400 (EDT)
X-Vms-To: IN%"tlhIngan-Hol@klingon.East.Sun.COM"
I'm in total agreement with all who say that {mughojmoHwI'} is equivalent
to {ghojmoHwI'wI'}. It's the same thing, but I just liked the former for
some reason. It seemed so unEnglish without that almost idiosyncratic
possessive floating around in the translation.
But as for "double objects," your argument has no real relation to my
spiel about double predicate causitives (henceforth to be known as DPC
to eliminate excess typing). You gave the examples:
{ghIchwIj DabochmoHchugh, ghIchlIj qanob} and
{ro'qegh 'Iwchab HInob}
Hello!! These are not DPC's. The pronominal prefix is used to indicate
a pronoun indirect object, which would have otherwise used {-vaD}.
This is a different argument.
When {-moH} is tacked onto a verb that can take an object, like {ghoj},
the risk of running into the DPC problem exists because two verbs are
really present: "cause" and "learn". The object of "cause" is learning
something, and of course, "learn" can already take an object.
So, what does this mean?: {yInQeD vIghojmoH} ---
Not, "I teach biology," but really, "I cause biology to learn."
This validates my point that there really is no verb "to teach"
in Klingon. There is the semantic concept of teaching, but
it merely stems as a causitive from "to learn."
You can legally say, "I teach the kids." {puqpu' vIghojmoH}.
But what about, "I teach the kids biology."?
Literally, "I cause the kids to learn biology." where "kids" is the object
of "cause" and "biology" is the object of "learn."
My method for handling DPCs is the verb {qaSmoH} with {'e'} as its object.
{yInQeD lughoj puqpu' 'e' vIqaSmoH} or for simplicity's sake,
{jIHmo' yInQeD lughoj puqpu'}.
As for {pong}, that's also a different story. I've wondered ever since the
first day I noticed {pong} in TKD why Okrand didn't make it
"to be called, named." That's what a lot of languages do.
*POP!* Wait a second! A thought just popped into my head.
Maybe if you wanted to say " They call the wind 'Mariah,'" just use
the handy, dandy CAUSITIVE once again. Of course, you have to do some
word shuffling to get a grmmatically correct sentence. How 'bout this?:
{"Mariah" 'oH SuS pong'e' 'e' luqaSmoH}.
I was almost going to use {-moH} on {'oH}. That's another interesting
issue.. How would you say "They made him an officer."
It couldn't be *{yaS lughaHmoH}. NO, I REALLY DON'T THINK SO!
Just say {yaS ghaH 'e' luqaSmoH} and be done with it.
This is Guido#1, leader of all Guidos, signing off... ---*
And remember to never split your infinitives.
Thank ewe
