[112304] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [tlhIngan Hol] If only we could use twice to say..
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (De'vID)
Wed Mar 20 19:02:02 2019
X-Original-To: tlhingan-hol@lists.kli.org
In-Reply-To: <CABSTb1c=jMYuD055Ok-PT0aCpsYiOfj-dAzPCDO7E0e2ZMK0TQ@mail.gmail.com>
From: "De'vID" <de.vid.jonpin@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2019 00:01:46 +0100
To: tlhIngan-Hol <tlhingan-hol@kli.org>
Reply-To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org
Errors-To: tlhingan-hol-bounces@lists.kli.org
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On Wed, 20 Mar 2019 at 18:04, Ed Bailey <bellerophon.modeler@gmail.com>
wrote:
> On Wed, Mar 20, 2019 at 4:55 AM De'vID <de.vid.jonpin@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, 19 Mar 2019 at 21:07, Ed Bailey <bellerophon.modeler@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> No surprises on the use of* -logh* in MKE: It says *Duj ghajchugh
>>> vay, cha'logh boq'egh qav'ap motlh; chen qav'ap le'. ghajwI'vaD qav'ap le'
>>> yIDIl.* "If owned, pay owner twice the rental to which they are
>>> otherwise entitled."
>>>
>>> (But it is proof that actual numbers aren't required in arithmetic
>>> expressions; as one might expect, it's possible to insert a word like
>>> *qav'ap* that has some numeric value that may be unspecified.
>>> Also, something I hadn't noticed before: evidently *DIl* can be used to
>>> mean "pay (the amount paid)," and not just the gloss of "pay for,"
>>>
>>
>> How so? {qav'ap} "rent" is a thing that you pay for. You're paying for
>> rent, not for the amount of the rent (though this happens to be how much
>> you have to pay).
>>
>
> The translation on the card makes it clear the amount paid is the thing
> that's being doubled. I have heard "rental" (but never "rent") used as a
> noun to mean the thing paid for, i.e. the use of a property for a period of
> time, but that's not what the Monopoly card means.
>
The expression "pay the rental" is a common shorthand for "pay the rental
fee". {qav'ap} is consistently translated as "rent" on the property cards.
I think you're being misled by the translation, because the English word
"pay" can mean both "pay for" and "pay out". The fact that the fee you have
to pay *for* is doubled means that the amount you have to pay *out* is also
doubled, but it does not mean that the same verb is necessarily used for
both.
> If it meant the thing you pay for is doubled, you'd get to stay an extra
> turn, right?
>
No, the rental fee being doubled just means you're paying twice as much as
you normally would.
This is what it says on the ship card:
{qa'vap}: 25
{2 Dujmey lughajlu'chugh}: 50
rent: 25
if two vessels are owned: 50
There's no implication that the fee being doubled means anything other than
that you pay double the amount for the same service.
> The KLI New Words List gives the gloss as "rent, cost, price, value," all
> words that indicate an amount of money to pay for a thing or that the
> amount a thing is supposedly worth.
>
AFAIK, those definitions were not provided in the game, but is someone's
guess at what the word means. (That guess may well be right, but they go
beyond what's actually necessary to explain the usage in the game.) The
game itself is consistent in using "rent" for {qav'ap} and {nob} as the
verb to pay out an amount: {qav'ap DIl}, but {vaghmaH QaS nob}. It *may* be
that you could say {vaghmaH QaS DIl} to say "pay out 50 troops" (rather
than "pay for 50 troops"), but that is not how it's used in the game. In
the game, you {DIl} a {qav'ap} by {nob}ing some amount of {QaS}.
--
De'vID
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">=
<div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Wed, 20 Mar 2019 at 18:04, Ed Bail=
ey <<a href=3D"mailto:bellerophon.modeler@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">b=
ellerophon.modeler@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"g=
mail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204=
,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr">On Wed, Mar 2=
0, 2019 at 4:55 AM De'vID <<a href=3D"mailto:de.vid.jonpin@gmail.com=
" target=3D"_blank">de.vid.jonpin@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><div cl=
ass=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0=
px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div =
dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><br><div class=3D"g=
mail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Tue, 19 Mar 2019 at 21=
:07, Ed Bailey <<a href=3D"mailto:bellerophon.modeler@gmail.com" target=
=3D"_blank">bellerophon.modeler@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquo=
te class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px =
solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr">=
No surprises on the use of<b> -logh</b> in MKE: It says <b>Duj ghajchugh va=
y,=C2=A0cha'logh boq'egh qav'ap motlh; chen qav'ap le'.=
=C2=A0ghajwI'vaD qav'ap le' yIDIl.</b>=C2=A0"If owned, pay=
owner twice the rental to which they are otherwise entitled."<div><b>=
<br></b><div>(But it is proof that actual numbers aren't required in ar=
ithmetic expressions; as one might expect, it's possible to insert a wo=
rd like <b>qav'ap</b> that has some numeric value that may be unspecifi=
ed.</div><div>Also, something I hadn't noticed before: evidently=C2=A0<=
b>DIl</b> can be used to mean "pay (the amount paid)," and not ju=
st the gloss of "pay for," </div></div></div></div></blockquote><=
div><br></div><div>How so? {qav'ap} "rent" is a thing that yo=
u pay for. You're paying for rent, not for the amount of the rent (thou=
gh this happens to be how much you have to pay).</div></div></div></div></b=
lockquote><div><br></div><div>The translation on the card makes it clear th=
e amount paid is the thing that's being doubled. I have heard "ren=
tal" (but never "rent") used as a noun to mean the thing pai=
d for, i.e. the use of a property for a period of time, but that's not =
what the Monopoly card means.</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div>=
<div>The expression "pay the rental" is a common shorthand for &q=
uot;pay the rental fee". {qav'ap} is consistently translated as &q=
uot;rent" on the property cards. I think you're being misled by th=
e translation, because the English word "pay" can mean both "=
;pay for" and "pay out". The fact that the fee you have to p=
ay *for* is doubled means that the amount you have to pay *out* is also dou=
bled, but it does not mean that the same verb is necessarily used for both.=
</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0p=
x 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><d=
iv dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div> If it meant the thing you p=
ay for is doubled, you'd get to stay an extra turn, right? </div></div>=
</div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>No, the rental fee being doubled jus=
t means you're paying twice as much as you normally would.=C2=A0</div><=
div><br></div><div>This is what it says on the ship card:</div><div><br></d=
iv><div>{qa'vap}: 25</div><div>{2 Dujmey lughajlu'chugh}: 50</div><=
div><br></div><div>rent: 25</div><div>if two vessels are owned: 50</div><di=
v><br></div><div>There's no implication that the fee being doubled mean=
s anything other than that you pay double the amount for the same service.<=
/div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px=
0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><di=
v dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div>The KLI New Words List gives =
the gloss as "rent, cost, price, value," all words that indicate =
an amount of money to pay for a thing or that the amount a thing is suppose=
dly worth.</div></div></div>
</blockquote></div><div><br></div>AFAIK, those definitions were not provide=
d in the game, but is someone's guess at what the word means. (That gue=
ss may well be right, but they go beyond what's actually necessary to e=
xplain the usage in the game.) The game itself is consistent in using "=
;rent" for {qav'ap} and {nob} as the verb to pay out an amount: {q=
av'ap DIl}, but {vaghmaH QaS nob}. It *may* be that you could say {vagh=
maH QaS DIl} to say "pay out 50 troops" (rather than "pay fo=
r 50 troops"), but that is not how it's used in the game. In the g=
ame, you {DIl} a {qav'ap} by {nob}ing some amount of {QaS}.<br clear=3D=
"all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"m_1266846220552534590=
gmail_signature">De'vID</div></div>
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