[112259] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [tlhIngan Hol] when -laH cripples the -lu'
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Will Martin)
Mon Mar 18 15:06:06 2019
X-Original-To: tlhingan-hol@lists.kli.org
From: Will Martin <willmartin2@mac.com>
Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2019 15:06:01 -0400
In-Reply-To: <d5ee06be-2f86-cc7f-f462-4ed3b3270497@trimboli.name>
To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org
Reply-To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org
Cc: tlhingan-hol@lists.kli.org
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It might be good to rethink the entire project. A long string of =
{-lu=E2=80=99} or {vay=E2=80=99} is odd because on one hand, you want =
the subject to be unspecified, but on the other hand, you want to be =
talking about the same unspecified entity repeatedly. If it were truly =
unspecified, then there=E2=80=99s no guarantee that the second statement =
is about the same entity as the first one.
It just doesn=E2=80=99t come across as direct, blunt speech. I=E2=80=99m =
suspecting it would test a listener=E2=80=99s patience.
Just sayin=E2=80=99.
There might be a better approach to the entire effort. I=E2=80=99d have =
to understand it better to give more detailed advice (if it were =
desired).
charghwI=E2=80=99 vaghnerya=E2=80=99ngan
rInpa=E2=80=99 bomnIS be=E2=80=99=E2=80=99a=E2=80=99 pI=E2=80=99.
> On Mar 18, 2019, at 2:21 PM, SuStel <sustel@trimboli.name> wrote:
>=20
> On 3/18/2019 2:09 PM, mayqel qunen'oS wrote:
>> SuStel:
>> > Show me a text you want to translate that you think runs=20
>> > into an irreconcilable -lu'/laH clash.
>>=20
>> I'm afraid you misunderstood me.
>>=20
>> The problem (or at least my problem..), isn't that I come across the =
need to say "someone who is unable", and can't find the way to say it, =
without breaking the -lu'/-laH rule.
>>=20
>> The problem is, that if I start the passage writing e.g. =
{vumlu'taHvIS, 'ej Doy'qu'lu'taHvIS, qeqnISlu'chugh..}, and suddenly I =
need to say "but he is unable to train", I would then need to switch off =
the -lu', to some other solution.
>>=20
>> Perhaps I would say {qeqlaHbe'}, {qeqlaHbe' vay'}, {qeqlaHbe' nuv}, =
{qeqlaHbe' vumqu'wI'}, etc.
>>=20
>> But doing so, I would have to switch from talking about someone =
"unspecified", to someone "specified".
>>=20
>> Now, don't ask me what the actual difference is, between the =
"someone" described by the -lu', and the "someone" described by the =
vay'. In greek we don't have something similar, so I can't *feel* the =
difference between the two.
>>=20
>> But I think sometime in the past, it had been said in a discussion on =
the -lu', that once someone starts using in a long passage the -lu', =
then it would be preferable if he didn't use -lu' and -vay' (or some =
other solution) interchangeably.
> I'd just use vay' with the -laH and forget about it.
>=20
> Actually I'd probably use vay' for the whole thing, provided I didn't =
need to repeat it. vumtaHvIS vay' 'ej Doy'qu'taHvIS, qeqnISchugh 'ach =
qaqlaHbe'chugh...
>=20
> Again, I'd need to see this in its larger context. You'll generally =
have to reword something that will end up with a -laH and -lu' together =
anyway.
>=20
> --=20
> SuStel
> http://trimboli.name =
<http://trimboli.name/>_______________________________________________
> tlhIngan-Hol mailing list
> tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org
> http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">It might be good to rethink the entire project. A long string =
of {-lu=E2=80=99} or {vay=E2=80=99} is odd because on one hand, you want =
the subject to be unspecified, but on the other hand, you want to be =
talking about the same unspecified entity repeatedly. If it were truly =
unspecified, then there=E2=80=99s no guarantee that the second statement =
is about the same entity as the first one.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">It just doesn=E2=80=99t come across as =
direct, blunt speech. I=E2=80=99m suspecting it would test a =
listener=E2=80=99s patience.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Just sayin=E2=80=99.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">There might be a better =
approach to the entire effort. I=E2=80=99d have to understand it better =
to give more detailed advice (if it were desired).</div><br =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">
<div dir=3D"auto" style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: =
space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D""><div =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none;">charghwI=E2=80=99 vaghnerya=E2=80=99ngan<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">rInpa=E2=80=99 bomnIS be=E2=80=99=E2=80=99a=E2=80=99 =
pI=E2=80=99.</div><div style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(0, =
0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"></div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline">
</div>
<div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On Mar 18, 2019, at 2:21 PM, SuStel <<a =
href=3D"mailto:sustel@trimboli.name" =
class=3D"">sustel@trimboli.name</a>> wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D"">
=20
<meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3DUTF-8" class=3D"">
=20
<div text=3D"#000000" bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF" class=3D"">
<div class=3D"moz-cite-prefix">On 3/18/2019 2:09 PM, mayqel qunen'oS
wrote:<br class=3D"">
</div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite" =
cite=3D"mid:CAP7F2cKQC2Xpov_39Ybza6cq2O+NbKH98E4A1UKw6vnXC6vtBg@mail.gmail=
.com" class=3D"">
<div dir=3D"auto" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family:sans-serif;font-size:12.8px" =
class=3D"">SuStel:</span></div>
<span style=3D"font-family:sans-serif;font-size:12.8px" =
class=3D"">> Show me
a text you want to translate that you think runs </span>
<div dir=3D"auto" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family:sans-serif;font-size:12.8px" class=3D"">> into =
an
irreconcilable </span><b =
style=3D"font-family:sans-serif;font-size:12.8px" =
class=3D"">-lu'/laH</b><span =
style=3D"font-family:sans-serif;font-size:12.8px" =
class=3D""> clash.</span></div>
<div dir=3D"auto" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family:sans-serif;font-size:12.8px" class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">
</span></div>
<div dir=3D"auto" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family:sans-serif;font-size:12.8px" class=3D"">I'm afraid =
you
misunderstood me.</span></div>
<div dir=3D"auto" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family:sans-serif;font-size:12.8px" class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">
</span></div>
<div dir=3D"auto" class=3D""><font face=3D"sans-serif" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:12.8px" class=3D"">The problem (or =
at least my
problem..), isn't that I come across the need to say
"someone who is unable", and can't find the way to say it,
without breaking the -lu'/-laH rule.</span></font></div>
<div dir=3D"auto" class=3D""><font face=3D"sans-serif" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:12.8px" class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</span></font></div>
<div dir=3D"auto" class=3D""><font face=3D"sans-serif" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:12.8px" class=3D"">The problem is, =
that if I start the
passage writing e.g. {vumlu'taHvIS, 'ej Doy'qu'lu'taHvIS,
qeqnISlu'chugh..}, and suddenly I need to say "but he is
unable to train", I would then need to switch off the -lu',
to some other solution.</span></font></div>
<div dir=3D"auto" class=3D""><font face=3D"sans-serif" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:12.8px" class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</span></font></div>
<div dir=3D"auto" class=3D""><font face=3D"sans-serif" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:12.8px" class=3D"">Perhaps I would =
say {qeqlaHbe'},
{qeqlaHbe' vay'}, {qeqlaHbe' nuv}, {qeqlaHbe' vumqu'wI'},
etc.</span></font></div>
<div dir=3D"auto" class=3D""><font face=3D"sans-serif" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:12.8px" class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</span></font></div>
<div dir=3D"auto" class=3D""><font face=3D"sans-serif" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:12.8px" class=3D"">But doing so, I =
would have to
switch from talking about someone "unspecified", to someone
"specified".</span></font></div>
<div dir=3D"auto" class=3D""><font face=3D"sans-serif" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:12.8px" class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</span></font></div>
<div dir=3D"auto" class=3D""><font face=3D"sans-serif" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:12.8px" class=3D"">Now, don't ask me =
what the actual
difference is, between the "someone" described by the -lu',
and the "someone" described by the vay'. In greek we don't
have something similar, so I can't *feel* the difference
between the two.</span></font></div>
<div dir=3D"auto" class=3D""><font face=3D"sans-serif" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:12.8px" class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</span></font></div>
<div dir=3D"auto" class=3D""><font face=3D"sans-serif" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:12.8px" class=3D"">But I think =
sometime in the past,
it had been said in a discussion on the =
-lu'</span></font><span style=3D"font-size:12.8px;font-family:sans-serif" =
class=3D"">, that once
someone starts using in a long passage the -lu', then it would
be preferable if he didn't use -lu' and -vay' (or some other
solution) interchangeably.</span></div>
</blockquote><p class=3D"">I'd just use <b class=3D"">vay'</b> with =
the <b class=3D"">-laH </b>and forget about
it.</p><p class=3D"">Actually I'd probably use <b =
class=3D"">vay'</b> for the whole thing,
provided I didn't need to repeat it. <b class=3D"">vumtaHvIS vay' =
'ej
Doy'qu'taHvIS, qeqnISchugh 'ach qaqlaHbe'chugh...</b></p><p =
class=3D"">Again, I'd need to see this in its larger context. You'll
generally have to reword something that will end up with a <b =
class=3D"">-laH</b>
and <b class=3D"">-lu'</b> together anyway.<br class=3D"">
</p>
<pre class=3D"moz-signature" cols=3D"72">--=20
SuStel
<a class=3D"moz-txt-link-freetext" =
href=3D"http://trimboli.name/">http://trimboli.name</a></pre>
</div>
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class=3D""></div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""></body></html>=
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