[112225] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [tlhIngan Hol] Expressing exterior
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Will Martin)
Thu Mar 14 13:21:56 2019
X-Original-To: tlhingan-hol@lists.kli.org
From: Will Martin <willmartin2@mac.com>
Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2019 13:21:49 -0400
To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org
In-Reply-To: <15gf1n3mjmjd81cil7s5msho.1552580064708@email.android.com>
Reply-To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org
Errors-To: tlhingan-hol-bounces@lists.kli.org
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As it happens, I=E2=80=99m personally responsible for us having the word =
for the bottom surface of the underside of a table.
As a Friend of Maltz, I was granted an opportunity to ask for a word. At =
the time, Klingon didn=E2=80=99t have any words for =E2=80=9Ctop=E2=80=9D =
or =E2=80=9Cbottom=E2=80=9D. So, I asked for those two words.
Instead, Maltz came back with a whole pile of words relating to the =
concept of top, bottom, maximum, minimum, exterior top and top of an =
interior space, etc.
I return to what I said about houses, however. Basically, our experience =
of things is with surfaces. If we speak of a thing, we most often are =
speaking of surfaces. We say that a woman is beautiful. We aren=E2=80=99t =
talking about her spleen or intestines, or her general constitution of =
body mass. We are talking about her surfaces, clothing included. We pick =
up a baseball. We touch only the surface. If you paint a baseball, you =
paint only the surface.
I honestly believe that surfaces are so generically important that =
it=E2=80=99s pretty rare that you need to differentiate them from the =
objects which they engulf. The Klingon words we have for surfaces =
highlight exceptional cases where the surface really is separately =
important. If you are trying to land an aircraft or spacecraft, the =
surface of the planet becomes REALLY IMPORTANT to you. If you are =
specifying how full to fill a fuel tank, the top surface of the interior =
of the gas tank is of special significance. If you are low on fuel, the =
bottom interior surface of the fuel tank is special.
These surfaces really deserve identities differentiated from the objects =
they are surfaces of. It=E2=80=99s done with vocabulary, not with =
prepositions, in English, and it=E2=80=99s done with vocabulary, not =
area-nouns (which have the function of prepositions in English) in =
Klingon.
It=E2=80=99s not perfect, but I think it=E2=80=99s good enough. If you =
have a specific example where there isn=E2=80=99t a word like {reD}, =
let=E2=80=99s work with it. Such an example deserves attention, but this =
half-effort to force {Hur} to mean something it doesn=E2=80=99t mean =
isn=E2=80=99t going to get the attention that you want to bring to the =
problem with what you see as a deficiency of this language.
charghwI=E2=80=99 vaghnerya=E2=80=99ngan
rInpa=E2=80=99 bomnIS be=E2=80=99=E2=80=99a=E2=80=99 pI=E2=80=99.
> On Mar 14, 2019, at 12:24 PM, mayqel qunen'oS <mihkoun@gmail.com> =
wrote:
>=20
> charghwI':
> > I, for one, wonder why you bother with Hur =20
> > at all=20
>=20
> The purpose of this thread was to find a way to express the exterior =
of an object.
>=20
> Using "I paint the house", is just an example I selected, which =
obviously I shouldn't have, because it would raise the question why I =
don't use reD.
>=20
> For a house we have reD. But what if I want to describe the exterior =
surface of an object in general ?
>=20
> This is one of the classic problems with klingon..
>=20
> Some definitions tend to be so specific, that in the end we are being =
left holding our d***s, unable to express some things which one would =
expect them to be specified when these words were given.
>=20
> We have "surface of water", we have "surface of a planet", and the =
"bottom surface of a table, ceiling".
>=20
> But we don't have a word for "surface" in general.
>=20
> It was sooo damn important to have a word for the bottom surface of a =
table though..
>=20
> Because, surely, each day there are sooo many times we need to talk =
about the bottom surface of a table..
>=20
> 'a qay'be'.. jISaHQbe' jay'.. I should have learned by now..
>=20
> ~ changan qIj
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> tlhIngan-Hol mailing list
> tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org <mailto:tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org>
> http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org =
<http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org>
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">As it happens, I=E2=80=99m personally responsible for us =
having the word for the bottom surface of the underside of a =
table.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">As a =
Friend of Maltz, I was granted an opportunity to ask for a word. At the =
time, Klingon didn=E2=80=99t have any words for =E2=80=9Ctop=E2=80=9D or =
=E2=80=9Cbottom=E2=80=9D. So, I asked for those two words.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Instead, Maltz came back =
with a whole pile of words relating to the concept of top, bottom, =
maximum, minimum, exterior top and top of an interior space, =
etc.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I return =
to what I said about houses, however. Basically, our experience of =
things is with surfaces. If we speak of a thing, we most often are =
speaking of surfaces. We say that a woman is beautiful. We aren=E2=80=99t =
talking about her spleen or intestines, or her general constitution of =
body mass. We are talking about her surfaces, clothing included. We pick =
up a baseball. We touch only the surface. If you paint a baseball, you =
paint only the surface.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">I honestly believe that surfaces are so generically important =
that it=E2=80=99s pretty rare that you need to differentiate them from =
the objects which they engulf. The Klingon words we have for surfaces =
highlight exceptional cases where the surface really is separately =
important. If you are trying to land an aircraft or spacecraft, the =
surface of the planet becomes REALLY IMPORTANT to you. If you are =
specifying how full to fill a fuel tank, the top surface of the interior =
of the gas tank is of special significance. If you are low on fuel, the =
bottom interior surface of the fuel tank is special.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">These surfaces really =
deserve identities differentiated from the objects they are surfaces of. =
It=E2=80=99s done with vocabulary, not with prepositions, in English, =
and it=E2=80=99s done with vocabulary, not area-nouns (which have the =
function of prepositions in English) in Klingon.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">It=E2=80=99s not perfect, but I think =
it=E2=80=99s good enough. If you have a specific example where there =
isn=E2=80=99t a word like {reD}, let=E2=80=99s work with it. Such an =
example deserves attention, but this half-effort to force {Hur} to mean =
something it doesn=E2=80=99t mean isn=E2=80=99t going to get the =
attention that you want to bring to the problem with what you see as a =
deficiency of this language.</div><br class=3D""><div class=3D"">
<div dir=3D"auto" style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: =
space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D""><div =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none;">charghwI=E2=80=99 vaghnerya=E2=80=99ngan<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">rInpa=E2=80=99 bomnIS be=E2=80=99=E2=80=99a=E2=80=99 =
pI=E2=80=99.</div><div style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(0, =
0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"></div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline">
</div>
<div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On Mar 14, 2019, at 12:24 PM, mayqel qunen'oS <<a =
href=3D"mailto:mihkoun@gmail.com" class=3D"">mihkoun@gmail.com</a>> =
wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div =
id=3D"d_1552580644658" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 9pt; =
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: =
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; color: rgb(31, =
73, 125);" class=3D""><div style=3D"font-size: 9pt; color: rgb(31, 73, =
125); margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;" =
class=3D"">charghwI':</div><div style=3D"font-size: 9pt; color: rgb(31, =
73, 125); margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;" class=3D"">> I, for =
one, wonder why you bother with Hur <span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> </span></div><div =
style=3D"font-size: 9pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); margin-top: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px;" class=3D"">> at all<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> </span></div><br class=3D""><div =
style=3D"font-size: 9pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); margin-top: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px;" class=3D"">The purpose of this thread was to find a =
way to express the exterior of an object.</div><br class=3D""><div =
style=3D"font-size: 9pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); margin-top: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px;" class=3D"">Using "I paint the house", is just an =
example I selected, which obviously I shouldn't have, because it would =
raise the question why I don't use reD.</div><br class=3D""><div =
style=3D"font-size: 9pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); margin-top: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px;" class=3D"">For a house we have reD. But what if I =
want to describe the exterior surface of an object in general ?</div><br =
class=3D""><div style=3D"font-size: 9pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); =
margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;" class=3D"">This is one of the =
classic problems with klingon..</div><br class=3D""><div =
style=3D"font-size: 9pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); margin-top: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px;" class=3D"">Some definitions tend to be so specific, =
that in the end we are being left holding our d***s, unable to express =
some things which one would expect them to be specified when these words =
were given.</div><br class=3D""><div style=3D"font-size: 9pt; color: =
rgb(31, 73, 125); margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;" class=3D"">We =
have "surface of water", we have "surface of a planet", and the "bottom =
surface of a table, ceiling".</div><br class=3D""><div style=3D"font-size:=
9pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;" =
class=3D"">But we don't have a word for "surface" in general.</div><br =
class=3D""><div style=3D"font-size: 9pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); =
margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;" class=3D"">It was sooo damn =
important to have a word for the bottom surface of a table =
though..</div><br class=3D""><div style=3D"font-size: 9pt; color: =
rgb(31, 73, 125); margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;" =
class=3D"">Because, surely, each day there are sooo many times we need =
to talk about the bottom surface of a table..</div><br class=3D""><div =
style=3D"font-size: 9pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); margin-top: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px;" class=3D"">'a qay'be'.. jISaHQbe' jay'.. I should =
have learned by now..</div><br class=3D""><div style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
color: rgb(31, 73, 125); margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;" =
class=3D"">~ changan qIj</div></div><div class=3D"quoted_separate_body" =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;"><div =
id=3D"quoted_header" style=3D"clear: both;" class=3D""></div><br =
type=3D"attribution" class=3D""><div id=3D"quoted_body" =
class=3D""></div>_______________________________________________<br =
class=3D"">tlhIngan-Hol mailing list<br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"mailto:tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org" =
class=3D"">tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org</a><br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org" =
class=3D"">http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org</a></div=
></div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""></body></html>=
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