[112138] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [tlhIngan Hol] =?utf-8?b?4oCcV2hhdCBjb2xvciBpcyBpdD/igJ0=?=
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Will Martin)
Mon Mar 11 08:59:03 2019
X-Original-To: tlhingan-hol@lists.kli.org
From: Will Martin <willmartin2@mac.com>
Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2019 08:58:59 -0400
To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org
In-Reply-To: <DE3E2063-A780-4931-97D4-3AAC6D939C07@dadap.net>
Reply-To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org
Errors-To: tlhingan-hol-bounces@lists.kli.org
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For all the things Klingon does well, it basically sucks at describing =
colors. My wife and I have discovered that when she grew up, she had the =
50 crayon set, while I had the classic (for boys) 8 color crayon set, =
and so her world is full of colors like mauve, teal, and chartreuse, =
while mine is full of colors like blue, green and orange. I have learned =
to recognize the colors she describes with words I didn=E2=80=99t know =
until I was middle aged, but it brings me back to the NPR Radio Lab =
episode about color, where they pointed out that there are no ancient =
writings that use any word that translates to =E2=80=9Cblue=E2=80=9D =
because the word had not been invented yet because they didn=E2=80=99t =
have blue pigment yet for paints or dyes.
Basically, humans don=E2=80=99t develop color words for natural colors. =
As they invent artificial colors, they invent words to describe them. =
Before there was blue paint or dye, the sea was described as the color =
of dark wine and the sky was white. Helen of Troy=E2=80=99s eyes were =
grey.
Apparently, Klingon kids grow up with two crayons, a dark pencil and a =
white page.=20
They have color words for the four colors they paint things: Green, Red, =
Whiteand Black. I=E2=80=99ve built a couple of Bird of Prey models. That =
pretty much covers the spectrum (except for white, which isn=E2=80=99t =
really used in that context). Everything else=E2=80=99s color is =
described as =E2=80=9Cresembling=E2=80=9D something with a natural color =
for which Klingon has no word.
And since there are so few color words to choose from, why bother with a =
generic word for =E2=80=9Ccolor=E2=80=9D? Just ask it like the joke: =
=E2=80=9CDoq=E2=80=99a=E2=80=99?=E2=80=9D
You don=E2=80=99t have to ask {SuD=E2=80=99a=E2=80=99}. If it=E2=80=99s =
not {Doq}, it must be {SuD}, right? And if it=E2=80=99s neither, then it =
isn=E2=80=99t really a color. It=E2=80=99s just dark or light or it =
looks like something in nature for which there is no color word.
This might be why the joke is considered funny to Klingons. Klingon =
armor, weapons, and blood are not red, so how could a warrior be red? =
It=E2=80=99s such a silly idea. Mwahahahahahahahahah...
charghwI=E2=80=99 vaghnerya=E2=80=99ngan
rInpa=E2=80=99 bomnIS be=E2=80=99=E2=80=99a=E2=80=99 pI=E2=80=99.
> On Mar 10, 2019, at 10:58 PM, Daniel Dadap <daniel@dadap.net> wrote:
>=20
> On Mar 10, 2019, at 21:32, SuStel <sustel@trimboli.name =
<mailto:sustel@trimboli.name>> wrote:
>=20
>>> My first instinct on how to ask that question was =E2=80=9Cchay' =
nguv?=E2=80=9D However, after I asked it that way, I immediately thought =
to myself that maybe that is asking about the means by which the car is =
colored (e.g. laSvarghDaq lunguvmoHpu' nguvmoHmeH qoqmey=E2=80=9D) =
rather than its current state of coloration.
>> It can't mean that; you'd have to ask chay' nguvmoHlu'pu' how has one =
tinted it? to get that.
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>=20
> Ah, cool. In English =E2=80=9Chow=E2=80=9D can both ask a question of =
quality and a question of process (my own made up terminology; I=E2=80=99m=
sure there are better words I don=E2=80=99t know, or did know and have =
forgotten), and I wasn=E2=80=99t sure if {chay'} could also do both in =
Klingon. The examples for {chay'} in TKD 6.4 did not include any =
questions of quality.
>=20
> It makes sense that {chay'} with a verb of quality would form a =
question of quality, but form a question of process when {-moH} is =
added. At least that=E2=80=99s what I think your example with {chay' =
nguv} vs. {chay' nguvmoHlu'pu'} generalizes out to.
>=20
>>=20
>>> So I reasked as =E2=80=9CDoq'a'? SuD'a'? chIS'a'? qIj'a'?=E2=80=9D
>> That's really awful.
>>=20
>=20
> Agreed.
>=20
>>=20
>> KGT tells us:
>>=20
>=20
> D=E2=80=99oh; once again I failed to open a perfectly good book I have =
sitting on my shelf before asking the list. Apologies for the noise.
> _______________________________________________
> tlhIngan-Hol mailing list
> tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org
> http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">For all the things Klingon does well, it basically sucks at =
describing colors. My wife and I have discovered that when she grew up, =
she had the 50 crayon set, while I had the classic (for boys) 8 color =
crayon set, and so her world is full of colors like mauve, teal, and =
chartreuse, while mine is full of colors like blue, green and orange. I =
have learned to recognize the colors she describes with words I didn=E2=80=
=99t know until I was middle aged, but it brings me back to the NPR =
Radio Lab episode about color, where they pointed out that there are no =
ancient writings that use any word that translates to =E2=80=9Cblue=E2=80=9D=
because the word had not been invented yet because they didn=E2=80=99t =
have blue pigment yet for paints or dyes.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Basically, humans don=E2=80=99t develop =
color words for natural colors. As they invent artificial colors, they =
invent words to describe them. Before there was blue paint or dye, the =
sea was described as the color of dark wine and the sky was white. Helen =
of Troy=E2=80=99s eyes were grey.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Apparently, Klingon kids grow up with =
two crayons, a dark pencil and a white page. </div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">They have color words =
for the four colors they paint things: Green, Red, Whiteand Black. =
I=E2=80=99ve built a couple of Bird of Prey models. That pretty much =
covers the spectrum (except for white, which isn=E2=80=99t really used =
in that context). Everything else=E2=80=99s color is described as =
=E2=80=9Cresembling=E2=80=9D something with a natural color for which =
Klingon has no word.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">And since there are so few color words to choose from, why =
bother with a generic word for =E2=80=9Ccolor=E2=80=9D? Just ask it like =
the joke: =E2=80=9CDoq=E2=80=99a=E2=80=99?=E2=80=9D</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">You don=E2=80=99t have =
to ask {SuD=E2=80=99a=E2=80=99}. If it=E2=80=99s not {Doq}, it must be =
{SuD}, right? And if it=E2=80=99s neither, then it isn=E2=80=99t really =
a color. It=E2=80=99s just dark or light or it looks like something in =
nature for which there is no color word.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">This might be why the joke is =
considered funny to Klingons. Klingon armor, weapons, and blood are not =
red, so how could a warrior be red? It=E2=80=99s such a silly idea. =
Mwahahahahahahahahah...</div><br class=3D""><div class=3D"">
<div dir=3D"auto" style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: =
space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D""><div =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none;">charghwI=E2=80=99 vaghnerya=E2=80=99ngan<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">rInpa=E2=80=99 bomnIS be=E2=80=99=E2=80=99a=E2=80=99 =
pI=E2=80=99.</div><div style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(0, =
0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"></div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline">
</div>
<div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On Mar 10, 2019, at 10:58 PM, Daniel Dadap <<a =
href=3D"mailto:daniel@dadap.net" class=3D"">daniel@dadap.net</a>> =
wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><meta =
http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dutf-8" =
class=3D""><div dir=3D"auto" class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" =
class=3D""></div><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"">On Mar 10, 2019, at 21:32, =
SuStel <<a href=3D"mailto:sustel@trimboli.name" =
class=3D"">sustel@trimboli.name</a>> wrote:</div><div dir=3D"ltr" =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
cite=3D"mid:0C4851B3-C98E-4E49-B2CA-BABCE601E00C@dadap.net" =
preoffsettop=3D"46" class=3D""><pre class=3D"moz-quote-pre" wrap=3D"">My =
first instinct on how to ask that question was =E2=80=9Cchay' nguv?=E2=80=9D=
However, after I asked it that way, I immediately thought to myself =
that maybe that is asking about the means by which the car is colored =
(e.g. laSvarghDaq lunguvmoHpu' nguvmoHmeH qoqmey=E2=80=9D) rather than =
its current state of coloration.</pre>
</blockquote><p class=3D"">It can't mean that; you'd have to ask <b =
class=3D"">chay' nguvmoHlu'pu'</b>
<i class=3D"">how has one tinted it? </i>to get that.<br class=3D"">=
</p><p class=3D""><br class=3D""></p></div></blockquote><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Ah, cool. In English =
=E2=80=9Chow=E2=80=9D can both ask a question of quality and a question =
of process (my own made up terminology; I=E2=80=99m sure there are =
better words I don=E2=80=99t know, or did know and have forgotten), and =
I wasn=E2=80=99t sure if {chay'} could also do both in Klingon. The =
examples for {chay'} in TKD 6.4 did not include any questions of =
quality.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">It =
makes sense that {chay'} with a verb of quality would form a question of =
quality, but form a question of process when {-moH} is added. At least =
that=E2=80=99s what I think your example with {chay' nguv} vs. {chay' =
nguvmoHlu'pu'} generalizes out to.</div><br class=3D""><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div class=3D"">
<br class=3D"webkit-block-placeholder"></div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite" =
cite=3D"mid:0C4851B3-C98E-4E49-B2CA-BABCE601E00C@dadap.net" =
preoffsettop=3D"345" class=3D"">
<pre class=3D"moz-quote-pre" wrap=3D"">So I reasked as =E2=80=9CDoq'=
a'? SuD'a'? chIS'a'? qIj'a'?=E2=80=9D</pre>
</blockquote><p class=3D"">That's really awful.<br =
class=3D""></p></div></blockquote><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Agreed.</div><br class=3D""><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div class=3D"">
<br class=3D"webkit-block-placeholder"></div><p class=3D"">KGT tells =
us:</p></div></blockquote><br class=3D""><div class=3D"">D=E2=80=99oh; =
once again I failed to open a perfectly good book I have sitting on my =
shelf before asking the list. Apologies for the =
noise.</div></div>_______________________________________________<br =
class=3D"">tlhIngan-Hol mailing list<br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"mailto:tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org" =
class=3D"">tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org</a><br =
class=3D"">http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org<br =
class=3D""></div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""></body></html>=
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