[112026] in tlhIngan-Hol
[tlhIngan Hol] Topic
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Will Martin)
Mon Mar 4 08:27:22 2019
X-Original-To: tlhingan-hol@lists.kli.org
From: Will Martin <willmartin2@mac.com>
Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2019 08:27:14 -0500
To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org
Reply-To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org
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In my American Sign Language class, we just covered =
=E2=80=9Ctopicalization=E2=80=9D. In ASL, it is common to express as the =
first sign of a sentence the topic, marking it as such with NMS =
(Non-Manual Sign) of raised eyebrows. Since, like Klingon and unlike =
English, there aren=E2=80=99t a lot of helper words piled around the =
nouns and verbs of the sentence to explain the grammatical function of =
those words, it becomes important to make the context of a sentence =
clear, first thing.
This is very much like the Klingon suffix {-=E2=80=98e=E2=80=99}, as =
described in TKD (The Klingon Dictionary), if it were actually used as =
described, though, as SuStel has pointed out, almost all (if not all) of =
the canon examples don=E2=80=99t use it as the grammatical explanation =
Okrand gives us. As described, a noun could appear first in a Klingon =
sentence, marked by the Type 5 suffix {-=E2=80=98e=E2=80=99}, stating =
the topic of the sentence, with no other grammatical link to the =
sentence. It=E2=80=99s not the subject. It=E2=80=99s not the object. =
It=E2=80=99s the topic. This would be consistent with other Type 5 =
suffixes that mark the location of the action of the verb (not its =
subject or object) or the purpose of the action of the verb (not its =
subject or object), etc.
As a theoretical example of this use, an alternative version of the =
sentence {SeqramvaD tlhIngan Hol ghojmoH HoD Qanqor} could have been =
{tlhIngan Hol=E2=80=99e=E2=80=99 Seqram ghojmoH Qanqor}. =E2=80=9COn the =
topic of the Klingon language, Captain Krankor teaches Seqram.=E2=80=9D =
If you just read the description of the grammar for {-=E2=80=98e=E2=80=99}=
, that=E2=80=99s what you=E2=80=99d expect, because the general case is =
that nouns with Type 5 suffix appear before the clause to which it =
applies and as the suffix that makes a noun the topic of the clause, =
such a marked noun shouldn=E2=80=99t act as object or subject of any =
clause.
But when you look at canon, Okrand puts {-=E2=80=98e=E2=80=99} on nouns =
that are subjects and objects and are placed in the word order =
accordingly. {nuqDaq =E2=80=98oH puchpa=E2=80=99=E2=80=99e=E2=80=99?} =
That=E2=80=99s not the topic. That=E2=80=99s the subject. {De=E2=80=99=E2=80=
=99e=E2=80=99 vItlhapnISpu=E2=80=99.} While the placement COULD be =
explained as topic, the verb prefix {vI-} makes it obvious that this is =
the object of the verb. His translation, =E2=80=9CI needed to get the =
INFORMATION,=E2=80=9D makes it clear that this is emphatic, not topic.
In ASL, I can also see a mixing of these concepts of topicalization and =
emphasis, though they seem a little more separated by the common use of =
what is called the diamond structure. In ASL, you might answer a =
question made to a group, =E2=80=9CWho is going to the store?=E2=80=9D =
with "[raised eyebrows] Me [eyebrows normal] store [point to a place to =
represent the store] go [directional sign toward that space] me.=E2=80=9D
My presumption is that the topic is repeated at the end as emphasis. =
Since it is optional, just signing it at the beginning probably acts =
more as simple topic without emphasis, but the repetition indicates =
emphasis.
Repetition is an important element of ASL, as in the way it marks the =
difference between the same sign indicating a noun or a verb. The verb =
sign =E2=80=9Cfly=E2=80=9D is repeated to indicate =E2=80=9Cairplane=E2=80=
=9D. The verb =E2=80=9Csit=E2=80=9D is repeated to indicate =E2=80=9Cchair=
=E2=80=9D. Typically, there=E2=80=99s a single repeat, so that =E2=80=9Cfl=
y fly=E2=80=9D is =E2=80=9Cairplane=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Csit sit=E2=80=9D=
is =E2=80=9Cchair=E2=80=9D.
In Klingon, were we to see a noun at the beginning of a sentence that =
has {-=E2=80=98e=E2=80=99} on it and has no other grammatical =
explanation for its placement, I suggest that would indicate topic, =
while adding {-=E2=80=98e=E2=80=99} to a noun that is placed as subject =
or object of a clause is acting as emphasis instead of topic.
As an example, when a relative clause has both subject and object, we =
optionally have the use of {-=E2=80=98e=E2=80=99} to mark the head noun:
puq qIppu=E2=80=99bogh yaS vIngu=E2=80=99.
This could mean either =E2=80=9CI identified the officer who hit the =
child,=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9CI identified the child who was hit by the =
officer.=E2=80=9D If I want to make sure you understand, I could say, =
{puq qIppu=E2=80=99bogh yaS=E2=80=99e=E2=80=99 vIngu=E2=80=99.}
Note that Okrand often does not use this tool in canon, leaving context =
to suggest whether the subject or object of the relative clause is the =
head noun. To me, that suggests that this use is more of an emphatic =
than topic marker. By emphasizing one of the nouns, it raises ones =
attention to it so that you understand it is the more important of the =
two nouns because it functions both within the relative clause and =
within the main clause. If it were functioning as topicalizer, then I =
suggest it would be more obligatory and not as optional, since emphasis =
is akin to tone of voice, and it could well be that when Okrand =
doesn=E2=80=99t mark the head noun, he is transcribing verbal speech =
where the head noun was emphasized with tone of voice instead of the =
suffix {-=E2=80=98e=E2=80=99}. In the movies, it is clear that Klingons =
do change their tone of voice for emphasis. Apparently {-=E2=80=98e=E2=80=99=
} is one of at least two methods of emphasizing a noun.
Also, there is no grammatical explanation for how a noun could have a =
Type 5 suffix and yet its position in the sentence is not dictated by =
the rule that nouns with Type 5 suffix must appear before the object of =
the verb to which it applies. Obviously, there=E2=80=99s something going =
on here that Okrand has not described well.
For myself, I would not be surprised if there were two different =
{-=E2=80=98e=E2=80=99} suffixes. One is the one Okrand describes in the =
grammar section of TKD and the other is the one he uses in perhaps all =
of his canon examples. This second one is not a true Type 5 suffix =
because the addition of this suffix has no effect on word placement.
There are really only two reasons for calling this a Type 5 suffix:
1. You can=E2=80=99t use it with other Type 5 suffixes.
2. It is always the last suffix on the noun.
So, the real question is which of the following is true:
1. There are two different noun suffixes, one of which is a true Type 5 =
suffix, affecting the word placement of the noun in the sentence, =
marking the topic of the sentence, and the other which is the noun =
equivalent of a verbal =E2=80=9Crover=E2=80=9D suffix (not that the =
suffix can rove among noun suffixes, but that the noun to which the =
suffix is applied can rove to whatever position in the sentence is =
appropriate, different than any other Type 5 suffix), indicating =
emphasis and not topic.
2. The grammatical description of {-=E2=80=98e=E2=80=99} is =
fundamentally flawed because it fails to explicitly describe that =
{-=E2=80=98e=E2=80=99} never affects word placement in the sentence as =
all other Type 5 noun suffixes do, and {-=E2=80=98e=E2=80=99} acts ONLY =
as emphatic and NEVER as topic. Okrand is apparently confused about the =
grammatical difference between topic and emphatic, or he oddly decided =
that while he understands the difference, his target audience doesn=E2=80=99=
t understand the difference, and perhaps we would understand the word =
=E2=80=9Ctopic=E2=80=9D while we would be confused by the term =
=E2=80=9Cemphatic=E2=80=9D.
In any case, this is without question the least well described suffix in =
TKD.
charghwI=E2=80=99 vaghnerya=E2=80=99ngan
rInpa=E2=80=99 bomnIS be=E2=80=99=E2=80=99a=E2=80=99 pI=E2=80=99.
--Apple-Mail=_B6BDC5B1-9527-464B-8C65-3FDCD0A54ADE
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/html;
charset=utf-8
<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">In my American Sign Language class, we just covered =
=E2=80=9Ctopicalization=E2=80=9D. In ASL, it is common to express as the =
first sign of a sentence the topic, marking it as such with NMS =
(Non-Manual Sign) of raised eyebrows. Since, like Klingon and unlike =
English, there aren=E2=80=99t a lot of helper words piled around the =
nouns and verbs of the sentence to explain the grammatical function of =
those words, it becomes important to make the context of a sentence =
clear, first thing.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">This is very much like the Klingon suffix {-=E2=80=98e=E2=80=99=
}, as described in TKD (The Klingon Dictionary), if it were actually =
used as described, though, as SuStel has pointed out, almost all (if not =
all) of the canon examples don=E2=80=99t use it as the grammatical =
explanation Okrand gives us. As described, a noun could appear first in =
a Klingon sentence, marked by the Type 5 suffix {-=E2=80=98e=E2=80=99}, =
stating the topic of the sentence, with no other grammatical link to the =
sentence. It=E2=80=99s not the subject. It=E2=80=99s not the object. =
It=E2=80=99s the topic. This would be consistent with other Type 5 =
suffixes that mark the location of the action of the verb (not its =
subject or object) or the purpose of the action of the verb (not its =
subject or object), etc.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">As a theoretical example of this use, an alternative version =
of the sentence {SeqramvaD tlhIngan Hol ghojmoH HoD Qanqor} could have =
been {tlhIngan Hol=E2=80=99e=E2=80=99 Seqram ghojmoH Qanqor}. =E2=80=9COn =
the topic of the Klingon language, Captain Krankor teaches Seqram.=E2=80=9D=
If you just read the description of the grammar for {-=E2=80=98e=E2=80=99=
}, that=E2=80=99s what you=E2=80=99d expect, because the general case is =
that nouns with Type 5 suffix appear before the clause to which it =
applies and as the suffix that makes a noun the topic of the clause, =
such a marked noun shouldn=E2=80=99t act as object or subject of any =
clause.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">But =
when you look at canon, Okrand puts {-=E2=80=98e=E2=80=99} on nouns that =
are subjects and objects and are placed in the word order accordingly. =
{nuqDaq =E2=80=98oH puchpa=E2=80=99=E2=80=99e=E2=80=99?} That=E2=80=99s =
not the topic. That=E2=80=99s the subject. {De=E2=80=99=E2=80=99e=E2=80=99=
vItlhapnISpu=E2=80=99.} While the placement COULD be explained as =
topic, the verb prefix {vI-} makes it obvious that this is the object of =
the verb. His translation, =E2=80=9CI needed to get the INFORMATION,=E2=80=
=9D makes it clear that this is emphatic, not topic.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">In ASL, I can also see a =
mixing of these concepts of topicalization and emphasis, though they =
seem a little more separated by the common use of what is called the =
diamond structure. In ASL, you might answer a question made to a group, =
=E2=80=9CWho is going to the store?=E2=80=9D with "[raised eyebrows] Me =
[eyebrows normal] store [point to a place to represent the store] go =
[directional sign toward that space] me.=E2=80=9D</div><div class=3D""><br=
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">My presumption is that the topic is =
repeated at the end as emphasis. Since it is optional, just signing it =
at the beginning probably acts more as simple topic without emphasis, =
but the repetition indicates emphasis.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Repetition is an important element of =
ASL, as in the way it marks the difference between the same sign =
indicating a noun or a verb. The verb sign =E2=80=9Cfly=E2=80=9D is =
repeated to indicate =E2=80=9Cairplane=E2=80=9D. The verb =E2=80=9Csit=E2=80=
=9D is repeated to indicate =E2=80=9Cchair=E2=80=9D. Typically, =
there=E2=80=99s a single repeat, so that =E2=80=9Cfly fly=E2=80=9D is =
=E2=80=9Cairplane=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Csit sit=E2=80=9D is =
=E2=80=9Cchair=E2=80=9D.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">In Klingon, were we to see a noun at the beginning of a =
sentence that has {-=E2=80=98e=E2=80=99} on it and has no other =
grammatical explanation for its placement, I suggest that would indicate =
topic, while adding {-=E2=80=98e=E2=80=99} to a noun that is placed as =
subject or object of a clause is acting as emphasis instead of =
topic.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">As an =
example, when a relative clause has both subject and object, we =
optionally have the use of {-=E2=80=98e=E2=80=99} to mark the head =
noun:</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">puq =
qIppu=E2=80=99bogh yaS vIngu=E2=80=99.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">This could mean either =E2=80=9CI =
identified the officer who hit the child,=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9CI =
identified the child who was hit by the officer.=E2=80=9D If I want to =
make sure you understand, I could say, {puq qIppu=E2=80=99bogh =
yaS=E2=80=99e=E2=80=99 vIngu=E2=80=99.}</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Note that Okrand often does not use =
this tool in canon, leaving context to suggest whether the subject or =
object of the relative clause is the head noun. To me, that suggests =
that this use is more of an emphatic than topic marker. By emphasizing =
one of the nouns, it raises ones attention to it so that you understand =
it is the more important of the two nouns because it functions both =
within the relative clause and within the main clause. If it were =
functioning as topicalizer, then I suggest it would be more obligatory =
and not as optional, since emphasis is akin to tone of voice, and it =
could well be that when Okrand doesn=E2=80=99t mark the head noun, he is =
transcribing verbal speech where the head noun was emphasized with tone =
of voice instead of the suffix {-=E2=80=98e=E2=80=99}. In the movies, it =
is clear that Klingons do change their tone of voice for emphasis. =
Apparently {-=E2=80=98e=E2=80=99} is one of at least two methods of =
emphasizing a noun.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Also, there is no grammatical explanation for how a noun =
could have a Type 5 suffix and yet its position in the sentence is not =
dictated by the rule that nouns with Type 5 suffix must appear before =
the object of the verb to which it applies. Obviously, there=E2=80=99s =
something going on here that Okrand has not described well.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">For myself, I would not =
be surprised if there were two different {-=E2=80=98e=E2=80=99} =
suffixes. One is the one Okrand describes in the grammar section of TKD =
and the other is the one he uses in perhaps all of his canon examples. =
This second one is not a true Type 5 suffix because the addition of this =
suffix has no effect on word placement.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">There are really only two reasons for =
calling this a Type 5 suffix:</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">1. You can=E2=80=99t use it with other =
Type 5 suffixes.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">2. It is always the last suffix on the noun.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">So, the real question is =
which of the following is true:</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">1. There are two different noun =
suffixes, one of which is a true Type 5 suffix, affecting the word =
placement of the noun in the sentence, marking the topic of the =
sentence, and the other which is the noun equivalent of a verbal =
=E2=80=9Crover=E2=80=9D suffix (not that the suffix can rove among noun =
suffixes, but that the noun to which the suffix is applied can rove to =
whatever position in the sentence is appropriate, different than any =
other Type 5 suffix), indicating emphasis and not topic.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">2. The grammatical =
description of {-=E2=80=98e=E2=80=99} is fundamentally flawed because it =
fails to explicitly describe that {-=E2=80=98e=E2=80=99} never affects =
word placement in the sentence as all other Type 5 noun suffixes do, and =
{-=E2=80=98e=E2=80=99} acts ONLY as emphatic and NEVER as topic. Okrand =
is apparently confused about the grammatical difference between topic =
and emphatic, or he oddly decided that while he understands the =
difference, his target audience doesn=E2=80=99t understand the =
difference, and perhaps we would understand the word =E2=80=9Ctopic=E2=80=9D=
while we would be confused by the term =E2=80=9Cemphatic=E2=80=9D.</div><=
div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">In any case, this is =
without question the least well described suffix in TKD.</div><br =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">
<div dir=3D"auto" style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: =
space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D""><div =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none;">charghwI=E2=80=99 vaghnerya=E2=80=99ngan<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">rInpa=E2=80=99 bomnIS be=E2=80=99=E2=80=99a=E2=80=99 =
pI=E2=80=99.</div><div style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(0, =
0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"></div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline">
</div>
<br class=3D""></body></html>=
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