[111985] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [tlhIngan Hol] Using -ta' during -taHvIS
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (De'vID)
Wed Feb 27 12:40:43 2019
X-Original-To: tlhingan-hol@lists.kli.org
In-Reply-To: <4b0de95f-ec3a-84e4-aa6d-531b7a59cd6e@trimboli.name>
From: "De'vID" <de.vid.jonpin@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2019 18:40:24 +0100
To: tlhIngan-Hol <tlhingan-hol@kli.org>
Reply-To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org
Cc: tlhingan-hol@lists.kli.org
Errors-To: tlhingan-hol-bounces@lists.kli.org
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On Wed, 27 Feb 2019 at 17:40, SuStel <sustel@trimboli.name> wrote:
> On 2/27/2019 10:46 AM, Will Martin wrote:
>
> We all hate the rule.
>
> Speak for yourself, not others. I don't hate the rule; I think it adds
> character to the language.
>
I don't "hate" the rule either. I just often forget it's there.
> Don't speak for Klingons, either. You don't know that this is the Klingon
> equivalent of *whom.* You can't go declaring that it's disappearing from
> Klingon because you don't like it. Okrand has given us some indication of
> language change in *KGT,* and perfective on the second verb is not one of
> the things he says is happening.
>
The fiction that we agree to is that Okrand is describing Klingon as
spoken. But it's actually spoken over a period of centuries on the shows,
all the way from just before the TOS era (in Enterprise and Discovery) to
the end of the TNG era. TKD describes Klingon as allegedly related by
Maltz, and it says that you can't have an aspect suffix on the second verb
in a SAO construction. The two SkyBox cards are about the TNG era. Within
our fiction, who wrote those cards, and in whose Klingon (and what time
period's) were they written? It could conceivably be the case that the rule
has changed or relaxed by the time of TNG, which is why {moj 'e' wuqta'}
and {luDub 'e' lunIDtaH} are allowed. Or maybe it's allowed in Gowron's
dialect, and not in Kruge's, and became illegal again after Gowron was
deposed by Worf.
Of course, we don't know, so nobody should go around declaring that this is
so. But Okrand's hints about language change and his invention of dialects
has given us (actually, him) a lot of leeway to excuse inconsistencies.
(In-universe Okrand must be a time-traveler, because not only is he an
active linguist all the way from the TOS through the TNG era, but he's
somehow also made communication with Maltz possible in the late 20th/early
21st century.)
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De'vID
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">=
<div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Wed, 27 Feb 2019 at 17:40, SuStel =
<<a href=3D"mailto:sustel@trimboli.name">sustel@trimboli.name</a>> wr=
ote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px=
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
=20
=20
=20
<div bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF">
<div class=3D"gmail-m_-7310414616281794344moz-cite-prefix">On 2/27/2019=
10:46 AM, Will Martin
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<div>We all hate the rule.</div>
</blockquote>
<p>Speak for yourself, not others. I don't hate the rule; I think i=
t
adds character to the language.<br></p></div></blockquote><div>I don&=
#39;t "hate" the rule either. I just often forget it's there.=
=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0=
.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div bgcolor=
=3D"#FFFFFF">
<p>Don't speak for Klingons, either. You don't know that this i=
s the
Klingon equivalent of <i>whom.</i> You can't go declaring that
it's disappearing from Klingon because you don't like it. Okr=
and
has given us some indication of language change in <i>KGT,</i>
and perfective on the second verb is not one of the things he says
is happening.</p></div>
</blockquote></div>The fiction that we agree to is that Okrand is describin=
g Klingon as spoken. But it's actually spoken over a period of centurie=
s on the shows, all the way from just before the TOS era (in Enterprise and=
Discovery) to the end of the TNG era. TKD describes Klingon as allegedly r=
elated by Maltz, and it says that you can't have an aspect suffix on th=
e second verb in a SAO construction. The two SkyBox cards are about the TNG=
era. Within our fiction, who wrote those cards, and in whose Klingon (and =
what time period's) were they written? It could conceivably be the case=
that the rule has changed or relaxed by the time of TNG, which is why {moj=
'e' wuqta'} and {luDub 'e' lunIDtaH} are allowed. Or m=
aybe it's allowed in Gowron's dialect, and not in Kruge's, and =
became illegal again after Gowron was deposed by Worf.=C2=A0<div><br></div>=
<div><div>Of course, we don't know, so nobody should go around declarin=
g that this is so. But Okrand's hints about language change and his inv=
ention of dialects has given us (actually, him) a lot of leeway to excuse i=
nconsistencies.<br></div><div><div><br></div><div>(In-universe Okrand must =
be a time-traveler, because not only is he an active linguist all the way f=
rom the TOS through the TNG era, but he's somehow also made communicati=
on with Maltz possible in the late 20th/early 21st century.)<br class=3D"gm=
ail-Apple-interchange-newline"></div><div><br></div>-- <br><div dir=3D"ltr"=
class=3D"gmail_signature">De'vID</div></div></div></div>
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