[111974] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [tlhIngan Hol] Using -ta' during -taHvIS
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Will Martin)
Wed Feb 27 10:46:38 2019
X-Original-To: tlhingan-hol@lists.kli.org
From: Will Martin <willmartin2@mac.com>
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2019 10:46:30 -0500
To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org
In-Reply-To: <2A229098-F719-4D7D-8143-77E3E480DFDF@dadap.net>
Reply-To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org
Errors-To: tlhingan-hol-bounces@lists.kli.org
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Just to add the historical background, this rule (no Type 7 suffix on =
second verb of SAO) exists because of a subtitle for a spoken Klingon =
line that Okrand clearly would have preferred to have put a perfective =
suffix on the second verb, but his hand was forced. The scene had been =
shot and they weren=E2=80=99t going to do it over again to fix the line, =
so he created this grammar rule in order to explain why that second verb =
didn=E2=80=99t have {-pu=E2=80=99} on it.=20
We all hate the rule.
In terms of the grammar being internally consistent and making sense and =
offering the most broad expressive capability, this rule stinks enough =
that even Okrand breaks it from time to time. I personally think it=E2=80=99=
s forgivable to let those exceptions in canon trump the rule, making it =
obsolete, so we can say, =E2=80=9CYeah, that=E2=80=99s an old grammar =
rule that people often ignore,=E2=80=9D like the way in English, as =
years pass, people never use =E2=80=9Cwhom=E2=80=9D, but instead use =
=E2=80=9Cwho=E2=80=9D for either subject or object.=20
Yes, the English rule definitely still exists, and you really should =
say, =E2=80=9CTo whom are you speaking?=E2=80=9D instead of =E2=80=9CWho =
are you speaking to?=E2=80=9D, but if somebody says the latter, =
everybody understands them, and most of the time, to be polite, you =
don=E2=80=99t even point out the technical error(s).
It=E2=80=99s good to have the rule to explain the past, but I don=E2=80=99=
t think anybody should feel TOO attached to the rule for the future. If =
you want to speak =E2=80=9Cproper=E2=80=9D Klingon, follow the rule, =
just like you should avoid using the very useful verb suffix {-luH} if =
you want to speak proper Klingon, but if you just want to say something =
in Klingon that everyone will understand clearly, and you are not trying =
to impress anyone with your fastidiously proper grammar, go ahead an put =
a Type 7 on the second verb of SAO and use {-luH}.=20
It=E2=80=99s like the English word =E2=80=9Cain=E2=80=99t=E2=80=9D. We =
know it=E2=80=99s not proper, but it works, and EVERYBODY knows HOW it =
works.
charghwI=E2=80=99 vaghnerya=E2=80=99ngan
rInpa=E2=80=99 bomnIS be=E2=80=99=E2=80=99a=E2=80=99 pI=E2=80=99.
> On Feb 27, 2019, at 12:34 AM, Daniel Dadap <daniel@dadap.net> wrote:
>=20
>=20
> On Feb 26, 2019, at 21:19, De'vID <de.vid.jonpin@gmail.com =
<mailto:de.vid.jonpin@gmail.com>> wrote:
>=20
>>> On Tue, 26 Feb 2019 at 15:20, Daniel Dadap <daniel@dadap.net =
<mailto:daniel@dadap.net>> wrote:
>> As for the rule resolving possible conflicts in aspect between a verb =
and its object sentence, perhaps that=E2=80=99s the reason, but I =
don=E2=80=99t see why the aspect of a verb taking an SAO and the verb in =
its SAO have to agree in the first place.
>>=20
>> What do you mean by "agree"? They don't have to be the same (which =
you seem to imply), but they can't be incompatible.
>=20
> Okay. Yes, =E2=80=9Cthe aspects should be the same=E2=80=9D is what I =
thought you meant when you were talking about preventing contradictory =
aspects, which didn=E2=80=99t seem like something that needed preventing =
to me, hence the examples. Apologies for the misunderstanding.
>=20
> Thanks for the Skybox counter-examples of the =E2=80=9Cno aspect =
marker on verb taking SAO=E2=80=9D rule. I=E2=80=99m constantly saying =
things like {(qaS vay') 'e' vIHar'pu'} to mean that I *had* believed =
that whatever the {(qaS vay')} placeholder represents was true, but that =
believing is completed after some new information caused me to no longer =
believe it. Then I remember that I=E2=80=99m not allowed to say {'e' =
vIHarpu'}. Of course, those counter-examples aren=E2=80=99t license to =
violate the rule given in TKD, but at least I won=E2=80=99t feel quite =
so bad about the occasional inevitable slip-ups when I say I {vIHarpu'} =
some sentence.
> _______________________________________________
> tlhIngan-Hol mailing list
> tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org
> http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">Just to add the historical background, this rule (no Type 7 =
suffix on second verb of SAO) exists because of a subtitle for a spoken =
Klingon line that Okrand clearly would have preferred to have put a =
perfective suffix on the second verb, but his hand was forced. The scene =
had been shot and they weren=E2=80=99t going to do it over again to fix =
the line, so he created this grammar rule in order to explain why that =
second verb didn=E2=80=99t have {-pu=E2=80=99} on it. </div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">We all hate the =
rule.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">In terms =
of the grammar being internally consistent and making sense and offering =
the most broad expressive capability, this rule stinks enough that even =
Okrand breaks it from time to time. I personally think it=E2=80=99s =
forgivable to let those exceptions in canon trump the rule, making it =
obsolete, so we can say, =E2=80=9CYeah, that=E2=80=99s an old grammar =
rule that people often ignore,=E2=80=9D like the way in English, as =
years pass, people never use =E2=80=9Cwhom=E2=80=9D, but instead use =
=E2=80=9Cwho=E2=80=9D for either subject or object. </div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Yes, the English rule =
definitely still exists, and you really should say, =E2=80=9CTo whom are =
you speaking?=E2=80=9D instead of =E2=80=9CWho are you speaking to?=E2=80=9D=
, but if somebody says the latter, everybody understands them, and most =
of the time, to be polite, you don=E2=80=99t even point out the =
technical error(s).</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">It=E2=80=99s good to have the rule to explain the past, but I =
don=E2=80=99t think anybody should feel TOO attached to the rule for the =
future. If you want to speak =E2=80=9Cproper=E2=80=9D Klingon, follow =
the rule, just like you should avoid using the very useful verb suffix =
{-luH} if you want to speak proper Klingon, but if you just want to say =
something in Klingon that everyone will understand clearly, and you are =
not trying to impress anyone with your fastidiously proper grammar, go =
ahead an put a Type 7 on the second verb of SAO and use =
{-luH}. </div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">It=E2=80=99s like the English word =E2=80=9Cain=E2=80=99t=E2=80=
=9D. We know it=E2=80=99s not proper, but it works, and EVERYBODY knows =
HOW it works.</div><br class=3D""><div class=3D"">
<div dir=3D"auto" style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: =
space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D""><div =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none;">charghwI=E2=80=99 vaghnerya=E2=80=99ngan<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">rInpa=E2=80=99 bomnIS be=E2=80=99=E2=80=99a=E2=80=99 =
pI=E2=80=99.</div><div style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(0, =
0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"></div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline">
</div>
<div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On Feb 27, 2019, at 12:34 AM, Daniel Dadap <<a =
href=3D"mailto:daniel@dadap.net" class=3D"">daniel@dadap.net</a>> =
wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><meta =
http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dutf-8" =
class=3D""><div dir=3D"auto" class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" =
class=3D""></div><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"">On Feb 26, 2019, at 21:19, De'vID <<a =
href=3D"mailto:de.vid.jonpin@gmail.com" =
class=3D"">de.vid.jonpin@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" =
class=3D""><div preoffsettop=3D"55" class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
__apple_fixed_attribute=3D"true" preoffsettop=3D"55" class=3D""><div =
dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Tue, 26 Feb 2019 at 15:20, Daniel =
Dadap <<a href=3D"mailto:daniel@dadap.net" =
class=3D"">daniel@dadap.net</a>> wrote:</div></blockquote><blockquote =
class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px =
solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex" preoffsettop=3D"101"><div =
dir=3D"auto" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D"">As for the rule =
resolving possible conflicts in aspect between a verb and its object =
sentence, perhaps that=E2=80=99s the reason, but I don=E2=80=99t see why =
the aspect of a verb taking an SAO and the verb in its SAO have to agree =
in the first place. </div></div></div></blockquote></div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">What do you mean by =
"agree"? They don't have to be the same (which you seem to imply), but =
they can't be incompatible.</div></div></blockquote><br class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">Okay. Yes, =E2=80=9Cthe aspects should be the same=E2=80=9D =
is what I thought you meant when you were talking about preventing =
contradictory aspects, which didn=E2=80=99t seem like something that =
needed preventing to me, hence the examples. Apologies for the =
misunderstanding.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Thanks for the Skybox counter-examples of the =E2=80=9Cno =
aspect marker on verb taking SAO=E2=80=9D rule. I=E2=80=99m constantly =
saying things like {(qaS vay') 'e' vIHar'pu'} to mean that I *had* =
believed that whatever the {(qaS vay')} placeholder represents was true, =
but that believing is completed after some new information caused me to =
no longer believe it. Then I remember that I=E2=80=99m not allowed to =
say {'e' vIHarpu'}. Of course, those counter-examples aren=E2=80=99t =
license to violate the rule given in TKD, but at least I won=E2=80=99t =
feel quite so bad about the occasional inevitable slip-ups when I say I =
{vIHarpu'} some =
sentence.</div></div>_______________________________________________<br =
class=3D"">tlhIngan-Hol mailing list<br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"mailto:tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org" =
class=3D"">tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org</a><br =
class=3D"">http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org<br =
class=3D""></div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""></body></html>=
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