[111950] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [tlhIngan Hol] Using -ta' during -taHvIS
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (SuStel)
Mon Feb 25 18:00:47 2019
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To: tlhingan-hol@lists.kli.org
From: SuStel <sustel@trimboli.name>
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2019 18:00:43 -0500
In-Reply-To: <36F0326D-911C-4B54-8069-83CDF2621CF0@dadap.net>
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On 2/25/2019 5:44 PM, Daniel Dadap wrote:
>> On Feb 25, 2019, at 15:30, SuStel <sustel@trimboli.name> wrote:
>>
>> Incorrect. Omitting a type 7 suffix on a verb explicitly means the action is not continuous and not perfective. It doesn't add optional meaning; if you are describing a completed action, you need a perfective suffix on it.
> I’ve seen you make this claim a number of times, but without providing a reference. Could you point out where aspect suffixes are described as non-optional? I’ve tried looking for it myself, and the closest thing I’ve found is in TKD 4.2.7 which says:
>
>> Klingon does not express tenses (past, present, future). These ideas come across from context or other words in the sentence (such as {wa'leS} <tomorrow>). The language does, however, indicate aspect: whether an action is completed or not yet completed, and whether an action is a single event or a continuing one.
>>
>> The absence of a Type 7 suffix usually means that the action is not completed and is not continuous (that is, it is not one of the things indicated by the Type 7 suffixes). Verbs with no Type 7 suffix are translated by the English simple present tense.
That's the one.
> I don’t take that to mean that a verb must necessarily take the appropriate Type 7 suffix it it happens to describe an action that is completed or continuous. The “usually” seems to leave room for the omission of Type 7 suffixes under unspecified circumstances.
"Usually" allows for exceptions, such as not being allowed to put a type
7 suffix on the second verb of a sentence-as-object. And if a rule
"usually" holds, then it usually holds, and is not merely optional.
> I also don’t think that the sentence about verbs with no Type 7 suffix being translated by the English simple present tense means that they always have to be translated that way. That could just be a description of the translating convention used in the dictionary or in the examples that immediately follow that description.
I made no claim about having to translate verbs with English simple
present. That's just a TKD convention. Okrand doesn't follow his own
conventions much; he says he'll translate perfective into the English
present perfect, and then half the time translates it into the simple past.
There's a similar line in the section on syntax: "Any noun in the
sentence indicating something other than subject or object comes first,
before the object noun. Such nouns usually end in a Type 5 noun
suffix..." There's that "usually" again, and no one is trying to argue
that a type 5 noun suffix being "usually" on pre-object nouns makes them
optional. The "usually" covers exceptions, the big one of which is time
expressions. But if I were to say, "To indicate a beneficiary of an
action, you put *-vaD* on the noun and put it before the object," no one
doubts that the *-vaD* is required. It's not optional, even if you only
"usually" need a type 5 suffix on the noun.
The "usually" is just part of Okrand's usual bit about the dictionary
being only a basic sketch of the language.
--
SuStel
http://trimboli.name
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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2/25/2019 5:44 PM, Daniel Dadap
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:36F0326D-911C-4B54-8069-83CDF2621CF0@dadap.net">
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">On Feb 25, 2019, at 15:30, SuStel <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:sustel@trimboli.name"><sustel@trimboli.name></a> wrote:
Incorrect. Omitting a type 7 suffix on a verb explicitly means the action is not continuous and not perfective. It doesn't add optional meaning; if you are describing a completed action, you need a perfective suffix on it.
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">
I’ve seen you make this claim a number of times, but without providing a reference. Could you point out where aspect suffixes are described as non-optional? I’ve tried looking for it myself, and the closest thing I’ve found is in TKD 4.2.7 which says:
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">Klingon does not express tenses (past, present, future). These ideas come across from context or other words in the sentence (such as {wa'leS} <tomorrow>). The language does, however, indicate aspect: whether an action is completed or not yet completed, and whether an action is a single event or a continuing one.
The absence of a Type 7 suffix usually means that the action is not completed and is not continuous (that is, it is not one of the things indicated by the Type 7 suffixes). Verbs with no Type 7 suffix are translated by the English simple present tense.</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<p>That's the one.<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:36F0326D-911C-4B54-8069-83CDF2621CF0@dadap.net">
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">I don’t take that to mean that a verb must necessarily take the appropriate Type 7 suffix it it happens to describe an action that is completed or continuous. The “usually” seems to leave room for the omission of Type 7 suffixes under unspecified circumstances.</pre>
</blockquote>
<p>"Usually" allows for exceptions, such as not being allowed to put
a type 7 suffix on the second verb of a sentence-as-object. And if
a rule "usually" holds, then it usually holds, and is not merely
optional.<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:36F0326D-911C-4B54-8069-83CDF2621CF0@dadap.net">
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">I also don’t think that the sentence about verbs with no Type 7 suffix being translated by the English simple present tense means that they always have to be translated that way. That could just be a description of the translating convention used in the dictionary or in the examples that immediately follow that description.</pre>
</blockquote>
<p>I made no claim about having to translate verbs with English
simple present. That's just a TKD convention. Okrand doesn't
follow his own conventions much; he says he'll translate
perfective into the English present perfect, and then half the
time translates it into the simple past.<br>
</p>
<p>There's a similar line in the section on syntax: "Any noun in the
sentence indicating something other than subject or object comes
first, before the object noun. Such nouns usually end in a Type 5
noun suffix..." There's that "usually" again, and no one is trying
to argue that a type 5 noun suffix being "usually" on pre-object
nouns makes them optional. The "usually" covers exceptions, the
big one of which is time expressions. But if I were to say, "To
indicate a beneficiary of an action, you put <b>-vaD</b> on the
noun and put it before the object," no one doubts that the <b>-vaD</b>
is required. It's not optional, even if you only "usually" need a
type 5 suffix on the noun.<br>
</p>
The "usually" is just part of Okrand's usual bit about the
dictionary being only a basic sketch of the language.<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
SuStel
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://trimboli.name">http://trimboli.name</a></pre>
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