[111948] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [tlhIngan Hol] Using -ta' during -taHvIS
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Will Martin)
Mon Feb 25 16:47:36 2019
X-Original-To: tlhingan-hol@lists.kli.org
From: Will Martin <willmartin2@mac.com>
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2019 16:47:24 -0500
To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org
In-Reply-To: <93924864-ed9c-34b5-c2ee-9d83bb844ec9@trimboli.name>
Reply-To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org
Errors-To: tlhingan-hol-bounces@lists.kli.org
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qatlho=E2=80=99.=20
You=E2=80=99ve done a deeper dive into the perfective than I have. Well =
thought-out, and thoroughly sensible.
charghwI=E2=80=99 vaghnerya=E2=80=99ngan
rInpa=E2=80=99 bomnIS be=E2=80=99=E2=80=99a=E2=80=99 pI=E2=80=99.
> On Feb 25, 2019, at 4:30 PM, SuStel <sustel@trimboli.name> wrote:
>=20
> On 2/25/2019 3:42 PM, Will Martin wrote:
>> Is feeding a cat really that much of an accomplishment? Is it that =
important to point out that you had planned feeding the cat as your goal =
and that you successfully reached that goal? If so, then by all means, =
use {-ta=E2=80=99}.
> -ta' has nothing to do with your sense of accomplishment. It has to do =
with whether you did something intentionally. If you did, you have the =
option of using either -pu' or -ta' (or rIntaH if the completion was =
particularly final).
>=20
> vIghro' vIje'ta' I fed at the cat. It wasn't a particularly momentous =
occasion, but I intentionally fed the cat and completed my feeding of =
the cat.
>=20
>=20
>=20
>> Why bother with a suffix if it doesn=E2=80=99t really add much to the =
meaning? It=E2=80=99s okay to omit it. I don=E2=80=99t have to explain =
to you why I omitted it. I did not make a mistake by omitting it. I =
would not have made a mistake by including it. It=E2=80=99s my choice. I =
can say it the way I want to say it.
> Incorrect. Omitting a type 7 suffix on a verb explicitly means the =
action is not continuous and not perfective. It doesn't add optional =
meaning; if you are describing a completed action, you need a perfective =
suffix on it.
>=20
> vIghro' vIje' I feed the cat. =46rom whatever vantage point I am =
describing this sentence, I am describing a non-continuous, =
non-completed action. For instance, a statement that, as the cat's =
owner, I feed the cat isn't a continuous action (I'm not doing it =
nonstop if I'm not Jon Arbuckle) or a completed action (I'm still the =
cat's owner and I still feed it). For another instance, if I'm telling a =
story, and in the moment described I feed the cat, then in that moment =
the feeding is neither continuous nor completed. (jIvem, jItuQ'eghmoH, =
vIghro' vIje', puchpa' vISuch...)
>=20
> But one thing that vIghro' vIje' cannot mean is that there was this =
one time I'm looking back on in which I fed a cat. For that you must =
include perfective.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> --=20
> SuStel
> http://trimboli.name =
<http://trimboli.name/>_______________________________________________
> tlhIngan-Hol mailing list
> tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org
> http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D"">qatlho=E2=80=99. <div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div=
class=3D"">You=E2=80=99ve done a deeper dive into the perfective than I =
have. Well thought-out, and thoroughly sensible.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">
<div dir=3D"auto" style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: =
space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D""><div =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none;">charghwI=E2=80=99 vaghnerya=E2=80=99ngan<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">rInpa=E2=80=99 bomnIS be=E2=80=99=E2=80=99a=E2=80=99 =
pI=E2=80=99.</div><div style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(0, =
0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"></div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline">
</div>
<div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On Feb 25, 2019, at 4:30 PM, SuStel <<a =
href=3D"mailto:sustel@trimboli.name" =
class=3D"">sustel@trimboli.name</a>> wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D"">
=20
<meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3DUTF-8" class=3D"">
=20
<div text=3D"#000000" bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF" class=3D"">
<div class=3D"moz-cite-prefix">On 2/25/2019 3:42 PM, Will Martin
wrote:<br class=3D"">
</div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite" =
cite=3D"mid:64B29053-D141-45DF-B66C-C939A5B7624B@mac.com" class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">Is feeding a cat really that much of an
accomplishment? Is it that important to point out that you had
planned feeding the cat as your goal and that you successfully
reached that goal? If so, then by all means, use {-ta=E2=80=99}.</=
div>
</blockquote><p class=3D""><b class=3D"">-ta'</b> has nothing to do =
with your sense of accomplishment.
It has to do with whether you did something intentionally. If you
did, you have the option of using either <b class=3D"">-pu'</b> or =
<b class=3D"">-ta'</b>
(or <b class=3D"">rIntaH</b> if the completion was particularly =
final).</p><p class=3D""><b class=3D"">vIghro' vIje'ta'</b><i class=3D""> =
I fed at the cat.</i> It wasn't a
particularly momentous occasion, but I intentionally fed the cat
and completed my feeding of the cat.<br class=3D"">
</p><p class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</p>
<blockquote type=3D"cite" =
cite=3D"mid:64B29053-D141-45DF-B66C-C939A5B7624B@mac.com" class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">Why bother with a suffix if it doesn=E2=80=99t =
really add
much to the meaning? It=E2=80=99s okay to omit it. I don=E2=80=99t=
have to
explain to you why I omitted it. I did not make a mistake by
omitting it. I would not have made a mistake by including it.
It=E2=80=99s my choice. I can say it the way I want to say =
it.</div>
</blockquote><p class=3D"">Incorrect. Omitting a type 7 suffix on a =
verb explicitly means
the action is not continuous and not perfective. It doesn't add
optional meaning; if you are describing a completed action, you
need a perfective suffix on it.</p><p class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">vIghro' vIje'</b> <i class=3D"">I feed the cat.</i> =46rom =
whatever
vantage point I am describing this sentence, I am describing a
non-continuous, non-completed action. For instance, a statement
that, as the cat's owner, I feed the cat isn't a continuous action
(I'm not doing it nonstop if I'm not Jon Arbuckle) or a completed
action (I'm still the cat's owner and I still feed it). For
another instance, if I'm telling a story, and in the moment
described I feed the cat, then in that moment the feeding is
neither continuous nor completed. <b class=3D"">(jIvem, =
jItuQ'eghmoH,
vIghro' vIje', puchpa' vISuch...)</b></p><p class=3D"">But one =
thing that <b class=3D"">vIghro' vIje'</b> cannot mean is that
there was this one time I'm looking back on in which I fed a cat.
For that you <i class=3D"">must</i> include perfective.<br =
class=3D"">
</p><p class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</p>
<pre class=3D"moz-signature" cols=3D"72">--=20
SuStel
<a class=3D"moz-txt-link-freetext" =
href=3D"http://trimboli.name/">http://trimboli.name</a></pre>
</div>
_______________________________________________<br class=3D"">tlhIngan-Hol=
mailing list<br class=3D""><a href=3D"mailto:tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org" =
class=3D"">tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org</a><br =
class=3D"">http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org<br =
class=3D""></div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""></div></body></html>=
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