[111945] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [tlhIngan Hol] Using -ta' during -taHvIS
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Will Martin)
Mon Feb 25 15:42:17 2019
X-Original-To: tlhingan-hol@lists.kli.org
From: Will Martin <willmartin2@mac.com>
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2019 15:42:12 -0500
To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org
In-Reply-To: <r5d6b863rjaqvueerjul4v1a.1551122509680@email.android.com>
Reply-To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org
Errors-To: tlhingan-hol-bounces@lists.kli.org
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Is feeding a cat really that much of an accomplishment? Is it that =
important to point out that you had planned feeding the cat as your goal =
and that you successfully reached that goal? If so, then by all means, =
use {-ta=E2=80=99}.
Why bother with a suffix if it doesn=E2=80=99t really add much to the =
meaning? It=E2=80=99s okay to omit it. I don=E2=80=99t have to explain =
to you why I omitted it. I did not make a mistake by omitting it. I =
would not have made a mistake by including it. It=E2=80=99s my choice. I =
can say it the way I want to say it.
Remember that {-ta=E2=80=99} is not =E2=80=9Cpast tense, plus an =
expression that the action was intentional=E2=80=9D. Okrand did =
originally intend to have tense in the language, but the evolution of =
the language (because of movie subtitles that were changed) swept that =
intent aside and replaced it with the =E2=80=9Caspect=E2=80=9D.
This point has been argued a lot, many times, but what it comes down to =
is that time stamps in Klingon may or may not imply a duration. They =
tell you when something happened, and that time reference could be an =
instant, or it could be a minute long, or an hour long, or a day long, =
or a year long, or a decade long, or a century long, etc. You have to =
factor in the duration of the time stamp.
The {-=E2=80=98pu=E2=80=99} and {-ta=E2=80=99} suffixes have everything =
to do with the moment that the action of the verb was completed. It=E2=80=99=
s definitely okay to use these suffixes if your intent is to say that =
the action was completed before the time period indicated by the time =
stamp. It=E2=80=99s also okay if your intent is to say that it=E2=80=99s =
completed during the duration of the time stamp.
The main thing to realize is that it brings focus to the completion of =
the act, rather than the doing of the act.
Consider the difference between the following in English and Klingon:
"I fed the cat every day." {Hoch jaj vIghro=E2=80=99 vIje=E2=80=99.} =
This is simple past tense. Klingon doesn=E2=80=99t indicate past tense. =
Today, I go to the store. Yesterday, I go to the store. Tomorrow, I go =
to the store. There is no tense. Get used to it. Time stamp, yes. Tense, =
no.
=E2=80=9CI intentionally accomplished feeding the cat every day.=E2=80=9D =
{Hoch jaj vIghro=E2=80=99 vIje=E2=80=99ta=E2=80=99.} There=E2=80=99s =
still no tense indicated here. The time stamp, =E2=80=9Cevery day=E2=80=9D=
includes a time when the feeding of the cat was complete, and the =
accomplishment of that completion had been previously planned, and the =
plan was executed successfully.
=E2=80=9CI had fed the cat every day.=E2=80=9D {Hoch jaj vIghro=E2=80=99 =
vIje=E2=80=99pu=E2=80=99.} There was a time within each day that the cat =
had been fed, and I was the one who did it. I didn=E2=80=99t start =
feeding it and then wait until sunrise and finish slightly after =
sunrise, allowing a day to pass without the cat having finished a day =
without being completely fed. The fact of my feeding it is not really =
that important. The fact that the act of feeding by me was completed =
within the time stamp. That=E2=80=99s where the focus of meaning is. Was =
there a plan? Maybe. Maybe not. I don=E2=80=99t care to express whether =
or not there was a goal or plan here. I=E2=80=99m merely letting you =
know that within the time period referred to by the time stamp, the end =
of the act of feeding the cat was reached, sufficient that nobody would =
suggest that the cat had been incompletely fed during the time stamp. =
The cat did not continue to require food after I fed it, so I stopped =
feeding it. Done.
Every day, done.
Am I making sense here?
charghwI=E2=80=99 vaghnerya=E2=80=99ngan
rInpa=E2=80=99 bomnIS be=E2=80=99=E2=80=99a=E2=80=99 pI=E2=80=99.
> On Feb 25, 2019, at 2:32 PM, mayqel qunen'oS <mihkoun@gmail.com> =
wrote:
>=20
> charghwI':
> > During ten years, I fed the cat once.
> > qaStaHvIS wa=E2=80=99maH DIS wa=E2=80=99logh vIghro=E2=80=99=20
> > vIje=E2=80=99.
>=20
> Why didn't you place -ta' on the vIje' ?
>=20
> charghwI':
> > During ten years, I fed the cat an=20
> > unspecified number of times.
> > qaStaHvIS wa=E2=80=99maH DIS rut vIghro=E2=80=99 vije.
>=20
> Again, why didn't you place a -ta' on the vIje' ?
>=20
> charghwI':
> > qaStaHvIS wa=E2=80=99maH DIS, qaSDI' Hoch jaj =20
> > wa=E2=80=99logh vIghro=E2=80=99 vije=E2=80=99
>=20
> Again, why not vIje'ta' ?
>=20
> Don't misunderstand me. I'm not trying to correct you. I'm only asking =
because I don't understand the missing -ta'.
>=20
> As far as the Hoch goes, I'm afraid jevreH mixed up the corresponding =
meanings.
>=20
> Hoch jaj =3D each day=20
> Hoch jajmey =3D all days=20
> jaj Hoch =3D all of the day=20
> jajmey Hoch =3D all of the days=20
>=20
> kgt p.55, HQ 5.2 p.11 jun 1996
>=20
> Of course, since the HolQeD transcription project went to the toilet, =
don't ask me what's actually written in the issue that I mentioned.
>=20
> It is just, that a little bird told me, that there's something there =
with regards to the Hoch.
>=20
> ~ Capricorn
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> tlhIngan-Hol mailing list
> tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org <mailto:tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org>
> http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org =
<http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org>
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">Is feeding a cat really that much of an accomplishment? Is it =
that important to point out that you had planned feeding the cat as your =
goal and that you successfully reached that goal? If so, then by all =
means, use {-ta=E2=80=99}.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Why bother with a suffix if it doesn=E2=80=99t really add =
much to the meaning? It=E2=80=99s okay to omit it. I don=E2=80=99t have =
to explain to you why I omitted it. I did not make a mistake by omitting =
it. I would not have made a mistake by including it. It=E2=80=99s my =
choice. I can say it the way I want to say it.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Remember that {-ta=E2=80=99} is not =
=E2=80=9Cpast tense, plus an expression that the action was =
intentional=E2=80=9D. Okrand did originally intend to have tense in the =
language, but the evolution of the language (because of movie subtitles =
that were changed) swept that intent aside and replaced it with the =
=E2=80=9Caspect=E2=80=9D.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">This point has been argued a lot, many times, but what it =
comes down to is that time stamps in Klingon may or may not imply a =
duration. They tell you when something happened, and that time reference =
could be an instant, or it could be a minute long, or an hour long, or a =
day long, or a year long, or a decade long, or a century long, etc. You =
have to factor in the duration of the time stamp.</div><div class=3D""><br=
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">The {-=E2=80=98pu=E2=80=99} and =
{-ta=E2=80=99} suffixes have everything to do with the moment that the =
action of the verb was completed. It=E2=80=99s definitely okay to use =
these suffixes if your intent is to say that the action was completed =
before the time period indicated by the time stamp. It=E2=80=99s also =
okay if your intent is to say that it=E2=80=99s completed during the =
duration of the time stamp.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div=
class=3D"">The main thing to realize is that it brings focus to the =
completion of the act, rather than the doing of the act.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Consider the difference =
between the following in English and Klingon:</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">"I fed the cat every day." {Hoch jaj =
vIghro=E2=80=99 vIje=E2=80=99.} This is simple past tense. Klingon =
doesn=E2=80=99t indicate past tense. Today, I go to the store. =
Yesterday, I go to the store. Tomorrow, I go to the store. There is no =
tense. Get used to it. Time stamp, yes. Tense, no.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">=E2=80=9CI intentionally =
accomplished feeding the cat every day.=E2=80=9D {Hoch jaj vIghro=E2=80=99=
vIje=E2=80=99ta=E2=80=99.} There=E2=80=99s still no tense indicated =
here. The time stamp, =E2=80=9Cevery day=E2=80=9D includes a time when =
the feeding of the cat was complete, and the accomplishment of that =
completion had been previously planned, and the plan was executed =
successfully.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">=E2=80=9CI had fed the cat every day.=E2=80=9D {Hoch jaj =
vIghro=E2=80=99 vIje=E2=80=99pu=E2=80=99.} There was a time within each =
day that the cat had been fed, and I was the one who did it. I didn=E2=80=99=
t start feeding it and then wait until sunrise and finish slightly after =
sunrise, allowing a day to pass without the cat having finished a day =
without being completely fed. The fact of my feeding it is not really =
that important. The fact that the act of feeding by me was completed =
within the time stamp. That=E2=80=99s where the focus of meaning is. Was =
there a plan? Maybe. Maybe not. I don=E2=80=99t care to express whether =
or not there was a goal or plan here. I=E2=80=99m merely letting you =
know that within the time period referred to by the time stamp, the end =
of the act of feeding the cat was reached, sufficient that nobody would =
suggest that the cat had been incompletely fed during the time stamp. =
The cat did not continue to require food after I fed it, so I stopped =
feeding it. Done.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Every day, done.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div=
class=3D"">Am I making sense here?</div><br class=3D""><div class=3D"">
<div dir=3D"auto" style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: =
space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D""><div =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none;">charghwI=E2=80=99 vaghnerya=E2=80=99ngan<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">rInpa=E2=80=99 bomnIS be=E2=80=99=E2=80=99a=E2=80=99 =
pI=E2=80=99.</div><div style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(0, =
0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"></div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline">
</div>
<div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On Feb 25, 2019, at 2:32 PM, mayqel qunen'oS <<a =
href=3D"mailto:mihkoun@gmail.com" class=3D"">mihkoun@gmail.com</a>> =
wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div =
id=3D"d_1551123140268" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 9pt; =
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: =
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; color: rgb(31, =
73, 125);" class=3D""><div style=3D"font-size: 9pt; color: rgb(31, 73, =
125); margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;" =
class=3D"">charghwI':</div><div style=3D"font-size: 9pt; color: rgb(31, =
73, 125); margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;" class=3D"">> During =
ten years, I fed the cat once.</div><div style=3D"font-size: 9pt; color: =
rgb(31, 73, 125); margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;" class=3D"">> =
qaStaHvIS wa=E2=80=99maH DIS wa=E2=80=99logh vIghro=E2=80=99<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> </span></div><div =
style=3D"font-size: 9pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); margin-top: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px;" class=3D"">> vIje=E2=80=99.</div><br =
class=3D""><div style=3D"font-size: 9pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); =
margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;" class=3D"">Why didn't you place =
-ta' on the vIje' ?</div><br class=3D""><div style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
color: rgb(31, 73, 125); margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;" =
class=3D"">charghwI':</div><div style=3D"font-size: 9pt; color: rgb(31, =
73, 125); margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;" class=3D"">> During =
ten years, I fed the cat an<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> </span></div><div =
style=3D"font-size: 9pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); margin-top: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px;" class=3D"">> unspecified number of =
times.</div><div style=3D"font-size: 9pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); =
margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;" class=3D"">> qaStaHvIS wa=E2=80=99=
maH DIS rut vIghro=E2=80=99 vije.</div><br class=3D""><div =
style=3D"font-size: 9pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); margin-top: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px;" class=3D"">Again, why didn't you place a -ta' on =
the vIje' ?</div><br class=3D""><div style=3D"font-size: 9pt; color: =
rgb(31, 73, 125); margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;" =
class=3D"">charghwI':</div><div style=3D"font-size: 9pt; color: rgb(31, =
73, 125); margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;" class=3D"">> =
qaStaHvIS wa=E2=80=99maH DIS, qaSDI' Hoch jaj <span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> </span></div><div =
style=3D"font-size: 9pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); margin-top: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px;" class=3D"">> wa=E2=80=99logh vIghro=E2=80=99 =
vije=E2=80=99</div><br class=3D""><div style=3D"font-size: 9pt; color: =
rgb(31, 73, 125); margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;" class=3D"">Again, =
why not vIje'ta' ?</div><br class=3D""><div style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
color: rgb(31, 73, 125); margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;" =
class=3D"">Don't misunderstand me. I'm not trying to correct you. I'm =
only asking because I don't understand the missing -ta'.</div><br =
class=3D""><div style=3D"font-size: 9pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); =
margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;" class=3D"">As far as the Hoch =
goes, I'm afraid jevreH mixed up the corresponding meanings.</div><br =
class=3D""><div style=3D"font-size: 9pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); =
margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;" class=3D"">Hoch jaj =3D each =
day<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> </span></div><div =
style=3D"font-size: 9pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); margin-top: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px;" class=3D"">Hoch jajmey =3D all days<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> </span></div><div =
style=3D"font-size: 9pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); margin-top: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px;" class=3D"">jaj Hoch =3D all of the day<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> </span></div><div =
style=3D"font-size: 9pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); margin-top: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px;" class=3D"">jajmey Hoch =3D all of the days<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> </span></div><br class=3D""><div =
style=3D"font-size: 9pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); margin-top: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px;" class=3D"">kgt p.55, HQ 5.2 p.11 jun 1996</div><br =
class=3D""><div style=3D"font-size: 9pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); =
margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;" class=3D"">Of course, since the =
HolQeD transcription project went to the toilet, don't ask me what's =
actually written in the issue that I mentioned.</div><br class=3D""><div =
style=3D"font-size: 9pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); margin-top: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px;" class=3D"">It is just, that a little bird told me, =
that there's something there with regards to the Hoch.</div><br =
class=3D""><div style=3D"font-size: 9pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); =
margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;" class=3D"">~ Capricorn</div><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"quoted_separate_body" style=3D"caret-color:=
rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: =
normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: =
normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; =
white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;"><div id=3D"quoted_header" style=3D"clear: both;" =
class=3D""></div><br type=3D"attribution" class=3D""><div =
id=3D"quoted_body" =
class=3D""></div>_______________________________________________<br =
class=3D"">tlhIngan-Hol mailing list<br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"mailto:tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org" =
class=3D"">tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org</a><br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org" =
class=3D"">http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org</a></div=
></div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""></body></html>=
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