[111889] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [tlhIngan Hol] Expressing "because of this additional"
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Will Martin)
Fri Feb 22 12:30:55 2019
X-Original-To: tlhingan-hol@lists.kli.org
From: Will Martin <willmartin2@mac.com>
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2019 12:30:47 -0500
To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org
In-Reply-To: <f76663d0-de98-d5e1-31b8-301f14c76079@trimboli.name>
Reply-To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org
Errors-To: tlhingan-hol-bounces@lists.kli.org
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I concede the point. Okrand has a very slippery range of use for =
{latlh}. Sometimes, it makes sense in terms of it being a stand-alone =
noun in a noun-noun genitive construction. Perhaps most often, it does =
make sense interpreted that way. Then again, there are times when it=E2=80=
=99s more like he just took the English phrase =E2=80=9Cother [noun]=E2=80=
=9D and replaced it with {latlh [noun]} in the Klingon sentence.
It rubs me the wrong way that he does stuff like this, that makes =
translation easier by not being grammatically consistent with what a =
noun is supposed to be doing in the language with a word he has only =
defined as a noun. It=E2=80=99s like having all aliens look like humans =
wearing prosthetics, or like being able to breathe on every planet they =
land on and having Earth-like gravity on every planet they go to.
It=E2=80=99s a step towards sloppy translation, and it doesn=E2=80=99t =
stick to the fictional culture with grippy-enough feet. It=E2=80=99s =
just kinda ugly, making me look for alternatives, even if doing it this =
way is perfectly acceptable.
It=E2=80=99s not my standard for the list, but it is my standard for =
myself. I just don=E2=80=99t enjoy using a noun as if it were an English =
adjective, preserving English word order because English has a word that =
is both a noun and an adjective, while Klingon supposedly doesn=E2=80=99t.=
=E2=80=9COn the other hand=E2=80=9D. In English, =E2=80=9Cother=E2=80=9D =
is not a noun.
If {latlh} were an adjectival verb meaning =E2=80=9Cbe other=E2=80=9D, =
then it would follow the noun it modifies.
But no. It just goes before the other noun because that=E2=80=99s how it =
happens in English. We can be that sloppy. It=E2=80=99s okay.
charghwI=E2=80=99 vaghnerya=E2=80=99ngan
rInpa=E2=80=99 bomnIS be=E2=80=99=E2=80=99a=E2=80=99 pI=E2=80=99.
> On Feb 22, 2019, at 11:13 AM, SuStel <sustel@trimboli.name> wrote:
>=20
> On 2/22/2019 10:54 AM, Will Martin wrote:
>>=20
>> It=E2=80=99s easy to forget that {latlh} is a noun and not quite the =
grammatical equivalent of the English word =E2=80=9Cother=E2=80=9D. I =
suspect we overuse it when alternatives would be clearer.=20
> Some canonical uses of latlh that are unambiguously not as a =
standalone noun...
>=20
> HeghDI' tlhIngan SuvwI' pagh tlhIngan SuvwI' HoHlu'DI' Heghtay lulop =
latlh tlhInganpu'.
> When a Klingon warrior dies or is killed, other Klingons may perform a =
ceremonial howl or yell as part of the Klingon death ritual. (SkyBox =
S31)
>=20
> latlh HIvje'Daq 'Iw HIq bIr yIqang!
> Pour the cold bloodwine into another glass! (KGT)
>=20
> latlh HIvje'Daq 'Iw HIq bIr vIqang
> I pour the cold bloodwine into another glass (KGT)
>=20
> QIt wa=E2=80=99 qa=E2=80=99 nuD veqlargh
> QIt latlh qa=E2=80=99 nuD veqlargh
> Hegh lurur mInDu=E2=80=99Daj
> Fek=E2=80=99lhr inspects them,
> One by one,
> With his deadly glance. (PB)
>=20
> Sepvetlh latlh DopDaq
> Hatlh lengtaHvIS qeylIS
> lutlhej tlhInganpu=E2=80=99 Hem mI=E2=80=99 nIb
> On the other side of the land,
> Kahless traveled the lands
> With an equal number of proud Klingons. (PB =E2=80=94 notice the =
other side, which was being talked about before)
>=20
> vIHbe=E2=80=99choH latlh SuvwI=E2=80=99pu=E2=80=99
> bey HoS QoymeH
> =E2=80=98IjmeH QamtaH
> The rest of the warriors stopped,
> They stood and listened,
> To hear the mighty howl. (PB)
>=20
>=20
> Okrand seems to be fairly free with his use of latlh. When modifying =
another noun, it sometimes means some unspecified extra number, =
sometimes it means one other, it sometimes means the next one, it =
sometimes means all the remaining somethings, and it sometimes means the =
opposite version of something.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> --=20
> SuStel
> http://trimboli.name =
<http://trimboli.name/>_______________________________________________
> tlhIngan-Hol mailing list
> tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org
> http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">I concede the point. Okrand has a very slippery range of use =
for {latlh}. Sometimes, it makes sense in terms of it being a =
stand-alone noun in a noun-noun genitive construction. Perhaps most =
often, it does make sense interpreted that way. Then again, there are =
times when it=E2=80=99s more like he just took the English phrase =
=E2=80=9Cother [noun]=E2=80=9D and replaced it with {latlh [noun]} in =
the Klingon sentence.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">It rubs me the wrong way that he does stuff like this, that =
makes translation easier by not being grammatically consistent with what =
a noun is supposed to be doing in the language with a word he has only =
defined as a noun. It=E2=80=99s like having all aliens look like humans =
wearing prosthetics, or like being able to breathe on every planet they =
land on and having Earth-like gravity on every planet they go =
to.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">It=E2=80=99s=
a step towards sloppy translation, and it doesn=E2=80=99t stick to the =
fictional culture with grippy-enough feet. It=E2=80=99s just kinda ugly, =
making me look for alternatives, even if doing it this way is perfectly =
acceptable.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">It=E2=80=99s not my standard for the list, but it is my =
standard for myself. I just don=E2=80=99t enjoy using a noun as if it =
were an English adjective, preserving English word order because English =
has a word that is both a noun and an adjective, while Klingon =
supposedly doesn=E2=80=99t. =E2=80=9COn the other hand=E2=80=9D. In =
English, =E2=80=9Cother=E2=80=9D is not a noun.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">If {latlh} were an adjectival verb =
meaning =E2=80=9Cbe other=E2=80=9D, then it would follow the noun it =
modifies.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">But =
no. It just goes before the other noun because that=E2=80=99s how it =
happens in English. We can be that sloppy. It=E2=80=99s okay.</div><br =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">
<div dir=3D"auto" style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: =
space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D""><div =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none;">charghwI=E2=80=99 vaghnerya=E2=80=99ngan<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">rInpa=E2=80=99 bomnIS be=E2=80=99=E2=80=99a=E2=80=99 =
pI=E2=80=99.</div><div style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(0, =
0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"></div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline">
</div>
<div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On Feb 22, 2019, at 11:13 AM, SuStel <<a =
href=3D"mailto:sustel@trimboli.name" =
class=3D"">sustel@trimboli.name</a>> wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D"">
=20
<meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3DUTF-8" class=3D"">
=20
<div text=3D"#000000" bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF" class=3D"">
<div class=3D"moz-cite-prefix">On 2/22/2019 10:54 AM, Will Martin
wrote:<br class=3D"">
</div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite" =
cite=3D"mid:1B93B9FC-4D4F-4093-BE45-8E2CBCAA1F1F@mac.com" class=3D"">
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">It=E2=80=99s easy to forget that {latlh} is a noun =
and not quite the
grammatical equivalent of the English word =E2=80=9Cother=E2=80=9D=
. I suspect we
overuse it when alternatives would be clearer. </div>
</blockquote><p class=3D"">Some canonical uses of <b =
class=3D"">latlh</b> that are unambiguously not<i class=3D"">
</i>as a standalone noun...</p>
<blockquote class=3D""><p class=3D""><b class=3D"">HeghDI' tlhIngan =
SuvwI' pagh tlhIngan SuvwI' HoHlu'DI'
Heghtay lulop latlh tlhInganpu'.<br class=3D"">
</b><i class=3D"">When a Klingon warrior dies or is killed, =
other Klingons
may perform a ceremonial howl or yell as part of the Klingon
death ritual.</i> (SkyBox S31)</p><p class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">latlh HIvje'Daq 'Iw HIq bIr yIqang!<br class=3D"">
</b><i class=3D"">Pour the cold bloodwine into another glass! =
</i>(KGT)<br class=3D"">
</p><p class=3D""><b class=3D"">latlh HIvje'Daq 'Iw HIq bIr =
vIqang<i class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</i></b><i class=3D"">I pour </i><i class=3D"">the cold =
bloodwine into another
glass</i> (KGT)</p><p class=3D""><b class=3D"">QIt wa=E2=80=99 =
qa=E2=80=99 nuD veqlargh<br class=3D"">
QIt latlh qa=E2=80=99 nuD veqlargh<br =
class=3D"">
Hegh lurur mInDu=E2=80=99Daj<br class=3D"">
</b><i class=3D"">Fek=E2=80=99lhr inspects them,<br class=3D"">
One by one,<br class=3D"">
With his deadly glance.</i> (PB)</p><p =
class=3D""><b class=3D"">Sepvetlh latlh DopDaq<br class=3D"">
Hatlh lengtaHvIS qeylIS<br class=3D"">
lutlhej tlhInganpu=E2=80=99 Hem mI=E2=80=99 =
nIb<br class=3D"">
</b><i class=3D"">On the other side of the land,<br class=3D"">
Kahless traveled the lands<br class=3D"">
With an equal number of proud Klingons.</i> =
(PB =E2=80=94 notice
the <i class=3D"">other side,</i> which was being talked about =
before)</p><p class=3D""><b class=3D"">vIHbe=E2=80=99choH latlh =
SuvwI=E2=80=99pu=E2=80=99<br class=3D"">
bey HoS QoymeH<br class=3D"">
=E2=80=98IjmeH QamtaH</b><i class=3D""><b =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</b></i><i class=3D"">The rest of the warriors stopped,<br =
class=3D"">
They stood and listened,<br class=3D"">
To hear the mighty howl.</i> (PB)<br =
class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
</p>
</blockquote><p class=3D"">Okrand seems to be fairly free with his =
use of <b class=3D"">latlh.</b>
When modifying another noun, it sometimes means some unspecified
extra number, sometimes it means one other, it sometimes means the
next one, it sometimes means all the remaining somethings, and it
sometimes means the opposite version of something.<br class=3D"">
</p>
<blockquote class=3D""><p class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</p>
</blockquote>
<pre class=3D"moz-signature" cols=3D"72">--=20
SuStel
<a class=3D"moz-txt-link-freetext" href=3D"http://trimboli.name/" =
moz-do-not-send=3D"true">http://trimboli.name</a></pre>
</div>
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