[111887] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [tlhIngan Hol] Out of curiosity..
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (nIqolay Q)
Fri Feb 22 12:06:04 2019
X-Original-To: tlhingan-hol@lists.kli.org
In-Reply-To: <dd4412bf-a7b9-49d9-03be-5884d9e92453@gmx.de>
From: nIqolay Q <niqolay0@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2019 12:05:49 -0500
To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org
Reply-To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org
Errors-To: tlhingan-hol-bounces@lists.kli.org
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On Fri, Feb 22, 2019 at 9:20 AM Lieven L. Litaer <levinius@gmx.de> wrote:
>
> Okrand wrote that before the existence of the KLI. He certainly just
> wanted to avoid saying anything wrong so he wrote that nothing is known.
> His job was to describe the language, not the letters.
>
There's apparently a PhD thesis whose author interviewed Okrand, titled
"Klingon as linguistic capital".
http://www.angelfire.com/trek/yensw/PDF/thesis.pdf (I'm sure Lieven knew
about this thesis already, I'm just mentioning it for the group.)
When Okrand was asked about pIqaD: "The mapping is very cleverly done... I
think it is great, it makes it so you can write the language... I wish I
could read it, when I get something written in pIqaD I'm able to very
slowly figure it out... I am glad someone really is doing it and has
decided that it is an alphabet and not a syllabary. Now we know, 'cause
Michael Okuda and I didn't know that."
Perhaps this means that Maltz was simply less forthcoming with orthography
information in the early days of their partnership. (He was probably still
salty over being captured by Kirk.) Or perhaps the Klingon Empire had been
using a more complex writing system at the time that was eventually
replaced by the simpler alphabetic pIqaD, and the distinction between the
variants of pIqaD wasn't obvious to outsiders. There are plenty of ways to
make the canon work in your head, I think. (I'm not sure it needs to be
explained, though. When science fiction tries to come up with in-setting
explanations for things that are clearly just production issues -- like why
all the alien races on Star Trek look like humans with prosthetics -- it
often falls flat.)
On Fri, Feb 22, 2019 at 9:09 AM Daniel Dadap <daniel@dadap.net> wrote:
> If anything, maybe the use of a font based on KLI pIqaD on-screen in Star
> Trek Discovery makes KLI pIqaD somewhat official, but that=E2=80=99s Star=
Trek
> official and not Marc Okrand official, since those are two different thin=
gs.
True, but it seems Star Trek official is a subset of Marc Okrand official.
There are things MO has said that aren't "official" Star Trek canon, like
the details of how gagh is prepared. But for the most part, he seems
willing to accept what Star Trek presents for Klingons and work around the
issues, even if that means pointing to some gibberish from DS9 and saying
it's just an older form of the language. He even takes a similarly
diplomatic approach to stuff that's important to Klingon fans, even if it's
not TV-show official, like some of the words from "The Klingon Art of War",
accepting {mInyoD} from Klingon Hamlet, and the time he translated various
Klingonaase titles used by fans. (And even the words from "The Klingon Art
of War" that he didn't sign off on, he explained away as "well, Maltz says
that might be an archaic term he's not heard before", rather than outright
saying Keith DeCandido screwed up.)
Also, as for using other symbols to represent sounds: There are a few
languages that use the numeral 7 to represent the glottal stop, since it
looks sort of similar to the IPA symbol for a glottal stop (which is kind
of a ? without the dot). {Daj ngutlhvam 7e7 DaQub7a7}
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div di=
r=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">=
On Fri, Feb 22, 2019 at 9:20 AM Lieven L. Litaer <<a href=3D"mailto:levi=
nius@gmx.de">levinius@gmx.de</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"g=
mail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204=
,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<br>
Okrand wrote that before the existence of the KLI. He certainly just <br>
wanted to avoid saying anything wrong so he wrote that nothing is known. <b=
r>
His job was to describe the language, not the letters.<br></blockquote><div=
><br></div><div><div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif" class=
=3D"gmail_default">There's apparently a PhD thesis whose author intervi=
ewed Okrand, titled "Klingon as linguistic capital". <a href=3D"h=
ttp://www.angelfire.com/trek/yensw/PDF/thesis.pdf">http://www.angelfire.com=
/trek/yensw/PDF/thesis.pdf</a> (I'm sure Lieven knew about this thesis =
already, I'm just mentioning it for the group.) </div><div style=3D"fon=
t-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif" class=3D"gmail_default"><br></div><div=
style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif" class=3D"gmail_default">W=
hen Okrand was asked about pIqaD: "The mapping is very cleverly done..=
. I think it is great, it makes it so you can write the language... I wish =
I could read it, when I get something written in pIqaD I'm able to very=
slowly figure it out... I am glad someone really is doing it and has decid=
ed that it is an alphabet and not a syllabary. Now we know, 'cause Mich=
ael Okuda and I didn't know that."</div><div style=3D"font-family:=
arial,helvetica,sans-serif" class=3D"gmail_default"><br></div><div style=3D=
"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif" class=3D"gmail_default">Perhaps th=
is means that Maltz was simply less forthcoming with orthography informatio=
n in the early days of their partnership. (He was probably still salty over=
being captured by Kirk.) Or perhaps the Klingon Empire had been using a mo=
re complex writing system at the time that was eventually replaced by the s=
impler alphabetic pIqaD, and the distinction between the variants of pIqaD =
wasn't obvious to outsiders. There are plenty of ways to make the canon=
work in your head, I think. (I'm not sure it needs to be explained, th=
ough. When science fiction tries to come up with in-setting explanations fo=
r things that are clearly just production issues -- like why all the alien =
races on Star Trek look like humans with prosthetics -- it often falls flat=
.)<br></div><div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif" class=3D"=
gmail_default"><br></div><div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-ser=
if" class=3D"gmail_default"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Fri, F=
eb 22, 2019 at 9:09 AM Daniel Dadap <<a href=3D"mailto:daniel@dadap.net"=
>daniel@dadap.net</a>> wrote:<br></div>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-=
left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
If anything, maybe the use of a font based on KLI pIqaD on-screen in=20
Star Trek Discovery makes KLI pIqaD somewhat official, but that=E2=80=99s S=
tar=20
Trek official and not Marc Okrand official, since those are two=20
different things.</blockquote></div></div><div><div style=3D"font-family:ar=
ial,helvetica,sans-serif" class=3D"gmail_default"><br></div><div style=3D"f=
ont-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif" class=3D"gmail_default">True, but it=
seems Star Trek official is a subset of Marc Okrand official. There are th=
ings MO has said that aren't "official" Star Trek canon, like=
the details of how gagh is prepared. But for the most part, he seems willi=
ng to accept what Star Trek presents for Klingons and work around the issue=
s, even if that means pointing to some gibberish from DS9 and saying it'=
;s just an older form of the language. He even takes a similarly diplomatic=
approach to stuff that's important to Klingon fans, even if it's n=
ot TV-show official, like some of the words from "The Klingon Art of W=
ar", accepting {mInyoD} from Klingon Hamlet, and the time he translate=
d various Klingonaase titles used by fans. (And even the words from "T=
he Klingon Art of War" that he didn't sign off on, he explained aw=
ay as "well, Maltz says that might be an archaic term he's not hea=
rd before", rather than outright saying Keith DeCandido screwed up.)<b=
r></div><div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif" class=3D"gmai=
l_default"><br></div><div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif" =
class=3D"gmail_default">Also, as for using other symbols to represent sound=
s: There are a few languages that use the numeral 7 to represent the glotta=
l stop, since it looks sort of similar to the IPA symbol for a glottal stop=
(which is kind of a ? without the dot). {Daj ngutlhvam 7e7 DaQub7a7}<br></=
div><br><div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif" class=3D"gmai=
l_default"><br></div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div=
><div>=C2=A0</div></div></div></div></div></div></div>
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