[111846] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [tlhIngan Hol] Out of curiosity..
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Will Martin)
Fri Feb 22 08:55:26 2019
X-Original-To: tlhingan-hol@lists.kli.org
From: Will Martin <willmartin2@mac.com>
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2019 08:55:21 -0500
To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org
In-Reply-To: <3D243F9F-8C17-4DC6-8003-9E999FC0194D@gmail.com>
Reply-To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org
Errors-To: tlhingan-hol-bounces@lists.kli.org
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Not to be a spoilsport here, but written Klingon is defined by those who =
legally own it to be indecipherable and not understood. TKD presents a =
phonetic alphabet for spoken Klingon. It=E2=80=99s Okrand=E2=80=99s =
system, not Maltz=E2=80=99s, and since Okrand is the guy who dictates =
what is or is not the language, that=E2=80=99s the gold standard.
As fans, we can play around with stuff, and I think that=E2=80=99s =
great. We have a pIqaD alphabet that was not initially approved, and =
then Skybox came along and now it=E2=80=99s official (I guess).=20
So, sure, maybe something else we come up with will end up being used by =
some official entity, but I haven=E2=80=99t really heard a reason to =
replace Okrand=E2=80=99s romanized TKD alphabet, and there=E2=80=99s a =
lot of canon out there using it. Jump to something else and new users =
would suddenly have to learn two systems.
If there were a compelling reason besides, =E2=80=9Cwouldn=E2=80=99t it =
be cool if=E2=80=A6=E2=80=9D, I could get behind it. I mean, it=E2=80=99s =
important to keep things interesting, but I=E2=80=99m not sure that the =
confusion this would probably create would be worth an actual shift.
I=E2=80=99d see it more like the running joke we had for a while that we =
had when some of us wrote Klingon text backwards as a code (keeping the =
ligatures internally forward), just to see who could figure out what was =
being written. It was fun. It was interesting. We didn=E2=80=99t suggest =
we start writing everything backwards, though. Some human languages go =
right to left. I work with them.
And at one point, Klingon was supposed to be read/written from the =
middle outward, but that was just to be weird. Eyes don=E2=80=99t track =
that pattern very well...
charghwI=E2=80=99 vaghnerya=E2=80=99ngan
rInpa=E2=80=99 bomnIS be=E2=80=99=E2=80=99a=E2=80=99 pI=E2=80=99.
> On Feb 22, 2019, at 7:52 AM, Jeffrey Clark <jmclark85@gmail.com> =
wrote:
>=20
> Since Klingon has fewer letters than than there are characters in most =
keyboards, it seems needless, if there was going to be a change in the =
system, to keep any multi-character letters.
>=20
> =E2=80=94jevreH
>=20
> Sent from my iPad
>=20
>> On Feb 22, 2019, at 07:26, Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin@cyburban.com> =
wrote:
>>=20
>> On Thu, 21 Feb 2019 15:47:23 -0600, Daniel Dadap <daniel@dadap.net>
>> wrote:
>>=20
>>>> On Feb 21, 2019, at 12:13, mayqel qunen'oS <mihkoun@gmail.com> =
wrote:
>>>>=20
>>>> how would we distinguish between the q and Q ?
>>>=20
>>> The one other place where case matters is in distinguishing between=20=
>>> ng+H and n+gh. I don=E2=80=99t think there are any word pairs where =
the=20
>>> difference would cause confusion, but that doesn=E2=80=99t mean =
there never=20
>>> will be.
>>>=20
>>> For example, nobody is going to think that NENGHEP is nengHep, or =
that=20
>>> VENGHOM is venghom if they know the words nenghep and vengHom.
>>=20
>> Perhaps the Esperanto 'x-convention' could be suitably adopted here,
>> and for the same reason that it is used in Esperanto: 'x' isn't a
>> letter in the alphabet. Thus, H -> hx and Q -> qx, and your examples
>> become nenghep and venghxom.
>>=20
>> (side note: Esperanto has six letters that have diacritics; without
>> the diacritics, they are indistinguishable from six other letters in
>> the Esperanto alphabet. So, if you're using a keyboard that doesn't
>> support the Esperanto diacritics, you use the 'matching'
>> undiacritic-ized letter followed by 'x' to indicate the =
diacritic-ized
>> letter.)
>>=20
>>> Using qh for Q could be problematic in a similar way for=20
>>> distinguishing q+H from Q. For example, is baqha' baqHa' or baQa'?
>>=20
>> And these are baqhxa' and baqxa' respectively.
>>=20
>>> An encoding like xifan hol or a system with diacritics would avoid=20=
>>> these issues.
>>=20
>>> FWIW I found SuStel=E2=80=99s example texts perfectly readable, but =
it does=20
>>> seem that old habits are hard to break (I saw a =E2=80=9CDaH=E2=80=9D =
in there rather=20
>>> than =E2=80=9CDah=E2=80=9D, for example.) Also, I wonder, since =
qaghwI' can=E2=80=99t exactly=20
>>> be capital or lowercase, if the vowel following a qaghwI' in a word=20=
>>> that begins with qaghwI' should be the one to be capitalized =
instead.=20
>>> For example:
>>>=20
>>> Qu' dataghdi' 'Aktu' Mellota' je tikaw.
>> _______________________________________________
>> tlhIngan-Hol mailing list
>> tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org
>> http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
> _______________________________________________
> tlhIngan-Hol mailing list
> tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org
> http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">Not to be a spoilsport here, but written Klingon is defined =
by those who legally own it to be indecipherable and not understood. TKD =
presents a phonetic alphabet for spoken Klingon. It=E2=80=99s Okrand=E2=80=
=99s system, not Maltz=E2=80=99s, and since Okrand is the guy who =
dictates what is or is not the language, that=E2=80=99s the gold =
standard.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">As =
fans, we can play around with stuff, and I think that=E2=80=99s great. =
We have a pIqaD alphabet that was not initially approved, and then =
Skybox came along and now it=E2=80=99s official (I =
guess). </div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">So, sure, maybe something else we come up with will end up =
being used by some official entity, but I haven=E2=80=99t really heard a =
reason to replace Okrand=E2=80=99s romanized TKD alphabet, and there=E2=80=
=99s a lot of canon out there using it. Jump to something else and new =
users would suddenly have to learn two systems.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">If there were a compelling reason =
besides, =E2=80=9Cwouldn=E2=80=99t it be cool if=E2=80=A6=E2=80=9D, I =
could get behind it. I mean, it=E2=80=99s important to keep things =
interesting, but I=E2=80=99m not sure that the confusion this would =
probably create would be worth an actual shift.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I=E2=80=99d see it more like the =
running joke we had for a while that we had when some of us wrote =
Klingon text backwards as a code (keeping the ligatures internally =
forward), just to see who could figure out what was being written. It =
was fun. It was interesting. We didn=E2=80=99t suggest we start writing =
everything backwards, though. Some human languages go right to left. I =
work with them.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">And at one point, Klingon was supposed to be read/written =
from the middle outward, but that was just to be weird. Eyes don=E2=80=99t=
track that pattern very well...</div><br class=3D""><div class=3D"">
<div dir=3D"auto" style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: =
space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D""><div =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none;">charghwI=E2=80=99 vaghnerya=E2=80=99ngan<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">rInpa=E2=80=99 bomnIS be=E2=80=99=E2=80=99a=E2=80=99 =
pI=E2=80=99.</div><div style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(0, =
0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"></div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline">
</div>
<div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On Feb 22, 2019, at 7:52 AM, Jeffrey Clark <<a =
href=3D"mailto:jmclark85@gmail.com" class=3D"">jmclark85@gmail.com</a>>=
wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">Since Klingon has fewer letters than than there are =
characters in most keyboards, it seems needless, if there was going to =
be a change in the system, to keep any multi-character letters.<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">=E2=80=94jevreH<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">Sent from my iPad<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D"">On Feb 22, 2019, at 07:26, Jeff Zeitlin <<a =
href=3D"mailto:jzeitlin@cyburban.com" =
class=3D"">jzeitlin@cyburban.com</a>> wrote:<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">On Thu, 21 Feb 2019 15:47:23 -0600, Daniel Dadap <<a =
href=3D"mailto:daniel@dadap.net" class=3D"">daniel@dadap.net</a>><br =
class=3D"">wrote:<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">On Feb 21, 2019, at =
12:13, mayqel qunen'oS <<a href=3D"mailto:mihkoun@gmail.com" =
class=3D"">mihkoun@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">how would we distinguish between the q and Q ?<br =
class=3D""></blockquote><br class=3D"">The one other place where case =
matters is in distinguishing between <br class=3D"">ng+H and n+gh. I =
don=E2=80=99t think there are any word pairs where the <br =
class=3D"">difference would cause confusion, but that doesn=E2=80=99t =
mean there never <br class=3D"">will be.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">For =
example, nobody is going to think that NENGHEP is nengHep, or that <br =
class=3D"">VENGHOM is venghom if they know the words nenghep and =
vengHom.<br class=3D""></blockquote><br class=3D"">Perhaps the Esperanto =
'x-convention' could be suitably adopted here,<br class=3D"">and for the =
same reason that it is used in Esperanto: 'x' isn't a<br class=3D"">letter=
in the alphabet. Thus, H -> hx and Q -> qx, and your =
examples<br class=3D"">become nenghep and venghxom.<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">(side note: Esperanto has six letters that have diacritics; =
without<br class=3D"">the diacritics, they are indistinguishable from =
six other letters in<br class=3D"">the Esperanto alphabet. So, if you're =
using a keyboard that doesn't<br class=3D"">support the Esperanto =
diacritics, you use the 'matching'<br class=3D"">undiacritic-ized letter =
followed by 'x' to indicate the diacritic-ized<br class=3D"">letter.)<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">Using qh =
for Q could be problematic in a similar way for <br =
class=3D"">distinguishing q+H from Q. For example, is baqha' baqHa' or =
baQa'?<br class=3D""></blockquote><br class=3D"">And these are baqhxa' =
and baqxa' respectively.<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D"">An encoding like xifan hol or a system with =
diacritics would avoid <br class=3D"">these issues.<br =
class=3D""></blockquote><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D"">FWIW I found SuStel=E2=80=99s example texts perfectly =
readable, but it does <br class=3D"">seem that old habits are hard to =
break (I saw a =E2=80=9CDaH=E2=80=9D in there rather <br class=3D"">than =
=E2=80=9CDah=E2=80=9D, for example.) Also, I wonder, since qaghwI' =
can=E2=80=99t exactly <br class=3D"">be capital or lowercase, if the =
vowel following a qaghwI' in a word <br class=3D"">that begins with =
qaghwI' should be the one to be capitalized instead. <br class=3D"">For =
example:<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Qu' dataghdi' 'Aktu' Mellota' je =
tikaw.<br =
class=3D""></blockquote>_______________________________________________<br=
class=3D"">tlhIngan-Hol mailing list<br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"mailto:tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org" =
class=3D"">tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org</a><br =
class=3D"">http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org<br =
class=3D""></blockquote>_______________________________________________<br=
class=3D"">tlhIngan-Hol mailing list<br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"mailto:tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org" =
class=3D"">tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org</a><br =
class=3D"">http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org<br =
class=3D""></div></div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""></body></html>=
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