[111692] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [tlhIngan Hol] using {-Daq} metaphorically
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Steven Boozer)
Tue Oct 24 04:20:46 2017
X-Original-To: tlhingan-hol@lists.kli.org
From: Steven Boozer <sboozer@uchicago.edu>
To: "tlhingan-hol@kli.org" <tlhingan-hol@kli.org>
Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2017 13:35:27 +0000
In-Reply-To: <c99db358-04ed-6ea2-08bd-464ee4288b74@gmx.de>
Reply-To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org
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Originally there was a "real" ocean. It was described in KGT in the sectio=
n on idioms (pp.121-122):
bIQ'a'Daq 'oHtaH 'etlh'e'. ("The sword is in the ocean.")
This is another expression based on a story about Kahless. After Kahless's =
brother, Morath, killed their father, Morath threw their father's sword int=
o the ocean, saying that if he could not have the sword, no one could. Afte=
r that, the brothers never spoke again. The idiom bIQ'a'Daq 'oHtaH 'etlh'e'=
("The sword is in the ocean") is used to mean that something has ended, th=
at it is impossible to return to a prior condition, just as Kahless and Mor=
ath never spoke to each other again. The expression might be used, for exam=
ple, in reference to a treaty that was just signed, suggesting that a forme=
r state of antagonism has ended forever. Of course, simply saying that some=
thing will last forever does not make it so. If an alliance ends, the phras=
e is equally apt: the era of peace has ended, and the sword is in the ocean=
--there is no going back.
--Voragh
-----Original Message-----
From: Lieven
Am 22.10.2017 um 16:45 schrieb mayqel qunenoS:
> {bIQ'a'Daq 'oHtaH 'etlh'e'}
> the sword is in the ocean
>
> There is no real ocean, but we use the {-Daq} on the {bIQ'a'} neverthless=
.
In the phrase itself, the ocean *is* a real thing, so using -Daq here is no=
t metaphorically.
I think it's surely okay to use {-Daq} for a thing like the internet, and a=
lso on TV, having music in/on a CD, and any of the virtual places we talk a=
bout.
I didn't find any real virtual locatives in canon examples, but maybe this =
works:
{wa' Dol nIvDaq matay'DI' maQap}
"We succeed together in a greater whole"
This is one of the situations where I would say that we do not know for sur=
e, but if it works, everyone understands and it does not break any known ru=
les, then go ahead and use it that way.
--
Lieven L. Litaer
aka the "Klingon Teacher from Germany"
http://www.klingonisch.net
http://www.klingonwiki.net/En/Type5NounSuffixes
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<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">Originally there was a “real” ocean.&=
nbsp; It was described in KGT in the section on idioms (pp.121-122):<o:p></=
o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"text-indent:.5in"><b> =
bIQ'a'Daq 'oHtaH 'etlh'e'.</b> ("The sword is in the ocean."=
;)<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin-left:4.8pt">This is another expre=
ssion based on a story about Kahless. After Kahless's brother, Morath, kill=
ed their father, Morath threw their father's sword into the ocean, saying t=
hat if he could not have the sword,
no one could. After that, the brothers never spoke again. The idiom <b>bIQ=
'a'Daq 'oHtaH 'etlh'e'</b> ("The sword is in the ocean") is used =
to mean that something has ended, that it is impossible to return to a prio=
r condition, just as Kahless and Morath never
spoke to each other again. The expression might be used, for example, in r=
eference to a treaty that was just signed, suggesting that a former state o=
f antagonism has ended forever. Of course, simply saying that something wil=
l last forever does not make it
so. If an alliance ends, the phrase is equally apt: the era of peace has e=
nded, and the sword is in the ocean--there is no going back.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">--Voragh<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">-----Original Message-----<br>
From: Lieven<br>
Am 22.10.2017 um 16:45 schrieb mayqel qunenoS:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">> {bIQ'a'Daq 'oHtaH 'etlh'e'=
}<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">> the sword is in the ocean<=
o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">> There is no real ocean, but we use the {-Daq=
} on the {bIQ'a'} neverthless.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">In the phrase itself, the ocean *is* a real thing=
, so using -Daq here is not metaphorically.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">I think it's surely okay to use {-Daq} for a thin=
g like the internet, and also on TV, having music in/on a CD, and any of th=
e virtual places we talk about.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">I didn't find any real virtual locatives in canon=
examples, but maybe this works:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"> {wa' Dol nIvDaq matay'DI' maQap}<o:p=
></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"> "We succeed together in a great=
er whole"<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">This is one of the situations where I would say t=
hat we do not know for sure, but if it works, everyone understands and it d=
oes not break any known rules, then go ahead and use it that way.<o:p></o:p=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">--<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">Lieven L. Litaer<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">aka the "Klingon Teacher from Germany"<=
o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><a href=3D"http://www.klingonisch.net"><span styl=
e=3D"color:windowtext;text-decoration:none">http://www.klingonisch.net</spa=
n></a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><a href=3D"http://www.klingonwiki.net/En/Type5Nou=
nSuffixes"><span style=3D"color:windowtext;text-decoration:none">http://www=
.klingonwiki.net/En/Type5NounSuffixes</span></a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">_______________________________________________<o=
:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">tlhIngan-Hol mailing list<o:p></o:p></p>
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an style=3D"color:windowtext;text-decoration:none">tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.o=
rg</span></a><o:p></o:p></p>
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