[111678] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [tlhIngan Hol] Translation help
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (De'vID)
Sat Oct 21 05:45:43 2017
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From: "De'vID" <de.vid.jonpin@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2017 15:19:38 +0200
To: tlhIngan-Hol <tlhingan-hol@kli.org>
Reply-To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org
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On 19 October 2017 at 14:19, Joseph Bell <joble02@icloud.com> wrote:
> Recently, I decided to start learning Klingon. As a practice, I started
> to translate the first few sentences of Sun Tzu=E2=80=99s the art of war.
>
I would say that translating a book isn't really the best way to practise a
language you don't already know very well. This is especially true if the
book you're translating is itself already a translation. I'm assuming
you're not translating directly from the Chinese, as your translation
indicates you're following the English you posted too closely.
(Also, as an aside, the Art of War has been translated already, though
apparently it's stuck in publication limbo.)
> Although it looks right to me, I realize that, if I am in some way
> horribly mistaken as to how this language works, I would have no way of
> realizing this on my own. So, I am sending this to the mailing list, in
> the hopes that some good Samaritan could give me a pointer or two in my
> path to learning this fascinating language. English in quotes.
>
> =E2=80=9CLaying Plans=E2=80=9D
>
> chenmoH nabpu=E2=80=99
>
I can't parse this at all. Is {nab} intended to be a noun or verb here?
What is its relationship to the verb {chenmoH}?
> =E2=80=9C1. Sun Tzu said: The art of war is of vital importance to the St=
ate.=E2=80=9D
>
>
> wa=E2=80=99. jatlh Sun=E2=80=99tlhu: <<veSQeD potlhqu=E2=80=99 wo=E2=80=
=99vaD>>.
>
>
>
Remember object verb subject. What is the subject of {potlhqu'}? What role
has {wo'vaD} play here?
> =E2=80=9C2. It is a matter of life and death, a road either to safety or =
to ruin.
> Hence it is a subject of inquiry which can on no account be neglected.=E2=
=80=9D
>
>
> cha=E2=80=99. yIn Hegh je Soj =E2=80=98oH =E2=80=98ej QaDqu=E2=80=99ghach=
lujqu=E2=80=99ghach ghap Dev =E2=80=98oH. QeD
> DabuSHa=E2=80=99be=E2=80=99qu=E2=80=99.
>
>
>
"It is a matter of..." is an English expression. I feel using {Soj} follows
this a bit too closely. What does it *mean* to say something is a matter of
life and death? Express that. I would also suggest to express using verbs
the idea you're apparently trying to express by using nouns with {-ghach}.
Note that we have a word {taw} for "road".
Is the last sentence intended to be an imperative? Right now, it just says
"You do *not* ignore this science" (not that you *shouldn't*).
> =E2=80=9C3. The art of war, then, is governed by five constant factors, t=
o be
> taken into account in one's deliberations, when seeking to determine the
> conditions obtaining in the field.=E2=80=9D
>
>
> wej. veSQeD qum vagh qechmey, bIH Daqel =E2=80=98ej yotlhDaq Datu=E2=80=
=99DI=E2=80=99.
>
>
Your sentence seems incomplete. "You consider them, and as soon as you find
it in the field..." [something seems missing here]. See TKD 6.2.2 about
subordinate clauses. Also, maybe you meant to use an imperative somewhere.
Note that "field" in this case is probably {che'ron} rather than {yotlh}.
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> _______________________________________________
> tlhIngan-Hol mailing list
> tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org
> http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
>
>
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De'vID
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quo=
te">On 19 October 2017 at 14:19, Joseph Bell <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=
=3D"mailto:joble02@icloud.com" target=3D"_blank">joble02@icloud.com</a>>=
</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .=
8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"auto">Recently=
, I decided to start learning Klingon.=C2=A0 As a practice, I started to tr=
anslate the first few sentences of Sun Tzu=E2=80=99s the art of war. =C2=A0=
</div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I would say that translating a book =
isn't really the best way to practise a language you don't already =
know very well. This is especially true if the book you're translating =
is itself already a translation. I'm assuming you're not translatin=
g directly from the Chinese, as your translation indicates you're follo=
wing the English you posted too closely.</div><div><br></div><div>(Also, as=
an aside, the Art of War has been translated already, though apparently it=
's stuck in publication limbo.)</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padd=
ing-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"auto">Although it looks right to me, I realize th=
at, if I am in some way horribly mistaken as to how this language works, I =
would have no way of realizing this on my own.=C2=A0 So, I am sending this =
to the mailing list, in the hopes that some good Samaritan could give me a =
pointer or two in my path to learning this fascinating language.=C2=A0 Engl=
ish in quotes.<div><br></div><div><p style=3D"margin:0px;font-stretch:norma=
l;font-size:11px;line-height:normal;font-family:Baskerville"><span style=3D=
"font-style:italic;font-size:11pt">=E2=80=9CLaying Plans=E2=80=9D</span></p=
>
<p style=3D"margin:0px;font-stretch:normal;font-size:11px;line-height:norma=
l;font-family:Baskerville"><span style=3D"font-weight:bold;font-size:11pt">=
chenmoH nabpu=E2=80=99</span></p></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><d=
iv>I can't parse this at all. Is {nab} intended to be a noun or verb he=
re? What is its relationship to the verb {chenmoH}?</div><div>=C2=A0</div><=
blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px=
#ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"auto"><div><p style=3D"margin:0px=
;font-stretch:normal;font-size:11px;line-height:normal;font-family:Baskervi=
lle;min-height:12.6px"></p>
<p style=3D"margin:0px;font-stretch:normal;font-size:11px;line-height:norma=
l;font-family:Baskerville"><span style=3D"font-style:italic;font-size:11pt"=
>=E2=80=9C1. Sun Tzu said: The art of war is of vital importance to the Sta=
te.=E2=80=9D</span></p>
<p style=3D"margin:0px;font-stretch:normal;font-size:11px;line-height:norma=
l;font-family:Baskerville;min-height:12.6px"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt"=
></span><br></p>
<p style=3D"margin:0px;font-stretch:normal;font-size:11px;line-height:norma=
l;font-family:Baskerville"><span style=3D"font-weight:bold;font-size:11pt">=
wa=E2=80=99.</span><span style=3D"font-size:11pt"> jatlh Sun=E2=80=99tlhu: =
<<veSQeD potlhqu=E2=80=99 wo=E2=80=99vaD>>.</span></p>
<p style=3D"margin:0px;font-stretch:normal;font-size:11px;line-height:norma=
l;font-family:Baskerville;min-height:12.4px"><span style=3D"font-style:ital=
ic;font-size:11pt"></span><br></p></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><=
div>Remember object verb subject. What is the subject of {potlhqu'}? Wh=
at role has {wo'vaD} play here?</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padd=
ing-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"auto"><div><p style=3D"margin:0px;font-stretch:no=
rmal;font-size:11px;line-height:normal;font-family:Baskerville;min-height:1=
2.4px"></p>
<p style=3D"margin:0px;font-stretch:normal;font-size:11px;line-height:norma=
l;font-family:Baskerville"><span style=3D"font-style:italic;font-size:11pt"=
>=E2=80=9C2. It is a matter of life and death, a road either to safety or t=
o ruin. Hence it is a subject of inquiry which can on no account be neglect=
ed.=E2=80=9D</span></p>
<p style=3D"margin:0px;font-stretch:normal;font-size:11px;line-height:norma=
l;font-family:Baskerville;min-height:12.4px"><span style=3D"font-style:ital=
ic;font-size:11pt"></span><br></p>
<p style=3D"margin:0px;font-stretch:normal;font-size:11px;line-height:norma=
l;font-family:Baskerville"><span style=3D"font-weight:bold;font-size:11pt">=
cha=E2=80=99. </span><span style=3D"font-size:11pt">yIn Hegh je Soj =E2=80=
=98oH =E2=80=98ej QaDqu=E2=80=99ghach lujqu=E2=80=99ghach ghap Dev =E2=80=
=98oH.=C2=A0 QeD DabuSHa=E2=80=99be=E2=80=99qu=E2=80=99.</span></p>
<p style=3D"margin:0px;font-stretch:normal;font-size:11px;line-height:norma=
l;font-family:Baskerville;min-height:12.6px"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt"=
></span><br></p></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>"It is a =
matter of..." is an English expression. I feel using {Soj} follows thi=
s a bit too closely. What does it *mean* to say something is a matter of li=
fe and death? Express that. I would also suggest to express using verbs the=
idea you're apparently trying to express by using nouns with {-ghach}.=
</div><div><br></div><div>Note that we have a word {taw} for "road&quo=
t;.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>Is the last sentence intended to be an i=
mperative? Right now, it just says "You do *not* ignore this science&q=
uot; (not that you *shouldn't*).</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote clas=
s=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;pad=
ding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"auto"><div><p style=3D"margin:0px;font-stretch:n=
ormal;font-size:11px;line-height:normal;font-family:Baskerville;min-height:=
12.6px"></p>
<p style=3D"margin:0px;font-stretch:normal;font-size:11px;line-height:norma=
l;font-family:Baskerville"><span style=3D"font-style:italic;font-size:11pt"=
>=E2=80=9C3. The art of war, then, is governed by five constant factors, to=
be taken into account in one's deliberations, when seeking to determin=
e the conditions obtaining in the field.=E2=80=9D</span></p>
<p style=3D"margin:0px;font-stretch:normal;font-size:11px;line-height:norma=
l;font-family:Baskerville;min-height:12.4px"><span style=3D"font-style:ital=
ic;font-size:11pt"></span><br></p>
<p style=3D"margin:0px;font-stretch:normal;font-size:11px;line-height:norma=
l;font-family:Baskerville"><span style=3D"font-weight:bold;font-size:11pt">=
wej. </span><span style=3D"font-size:11pt">veSQeD qum vagh qechmey, bIH Daq=
el =E2=80=98ej yotlhDaq Datu=E2=80=99DI=E2=80=99.</span></p><div><span styl=
e=3D"font-size:11pt"><br></span></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></d=
iv><div>Your sentence seems incomplete. "You consider them, and as soo=
n as you find it in the field..." [something seems missing here]. See =
TKD 6.2.2 about subordinate clauses. Also, maybe you meant to use an impera=
tive somewhere.</div><div><br></div><div>Note that "field" in thi=
s case is probably {che'ron} rather than {yotlh}.</div><div>=C2=A0</div=
><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1=
px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"auto"><div><div><span style=3D"=
font-size:11pt"></span></div><div><div><br><div id=3D"m_-459914993829586551=
2AppleMailSignature">Sent from my iPad</div></div></div></div></div><br>___=
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><br>
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oreferrer" target=3D"_blank">http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.<wbr>cgi/tlhinga=
n-hol-kli.org</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div cla=
ss=3D"gmail_signature" data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature">De'vID</div>
</div></div>
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