[111603] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [tlhIngan Hol] Klingon Word of the Day: 'Imyagh
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (SuStel)
Sat Oct 14 04:11:14 2017
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From: SuStel <sustel@trimboli.name>
Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2017 19:51:20 -0400
In-Reply-To: <CA25BEE3-818E-480E-B033-5CC1EFDA4CEC@alcaco.net>
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From: "ghunchu'wI' 'utlh" <qunchuy@alcaco.net>
On Oct 13, 2017, at 4:23 PM, SuStel <sustel@trimboli.name
<mailto:sustel@trimboli.name>> wrote:
On 10/13/2017 2:55 PM, ghunchu'wI' 'utlh wrote:
On Oct 13, 2017, at 12:26 PM, SuStel <sustel@trimboli.name
<mailto:sustel@trimboli.name>> wrote:
I wouldn’t make that assumption. If you must quote a
cat, say:*ghugh vIghro’; jatlh ‘Imyagh*.
I think that contradicts the “not speech” part of {ghugh}’s
definition. It makes perfect sense in my mind to
treat {ghugh} as similar to {jatlh}.
If it's not speech, then it's not a verb of saying.
What is your definition of “verb of saying”, and who called {ghugh} one?
I should have "verb of speech," because that's what Okrand called it in
his interview with Will Martin in /HolQeD/ 7:4. His first statement is
"Verbs of speech are 'say' verbs, like *jatlh* and *ja'.*" Then he says
that, unlike the English tendency to attach any old verb to a quotation,
Klingon doesn't do that:
In English, we say, "Give me some water," he said. "Give me some water,"
he pleaded. "Give me some water," he yelled. [...] I think that's an
English thing to do. That's not a Klingon thing to do. In Klingon, you
*jatlh* and you *ja'.* That's about it. The guard asked the prisoner a
question. He replied. He said, "[gestures a quotation he never quite made]"
He later admits that there may be other verbs of speech, but that
they're few. "The way I see I see the verbs of speech, there may be more
than just *ja'* and *jatlh,* but there is only a small number of words,
unlike English."
And the bulk of this section of the article is Okrand explaining to
Martin that verbs of speech in the *'e'*-less sentence-as-object
construction are used to report direct quotations.
So does that mean *ghugh* might also be a verb of speech? Yeeeesssss, if
you ignore that *ghugh* is explicitly not speech. If you consider "verbs
of quotation" to be a better term to describe them, you still need to
demonstrate that *ghugh* is not among all the other words that Okrand
explicitly blocked from being verbs of speech, mostly giving their
English translations: *tlhob, qoy', jach, chel, jang,* and that it is
one of the few that Okrand wasn't even sure existed.
So all of that is a lot of guesswork and looking at things sideways to
get to *ghugh* being a verb of speech, which is why I said "I wouldn't
make that assumption" and not "You can't do that." Hey, it DOES sound
like *ghugh* could be the "verb of animal noises" equivalent to "verbs
of speech," but we don't KNOW that.
As for who called *ghugh* a verb of speech: loghaD did, just not with
that term:
I would assume that this word can be used similarly to jatlh:
ghugh vIghro' 'Imyagh.
'Imyagh, ghugh vIghro'.
"The v'gro goes 'Imyagh."
He's talking about verbs of speech. He assumed; I said I wouldn't make
that assumption.
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<blockquote class="threadBlockQuote" style="border-left: 2px solid
#C2C2C2; padding-left: 3px; margin-left: 4px;">
<div>From: "ghunchu'wI' 'utlh" <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:qunchuy@alcaco.net"><qunchuy@alcaco.net></a><br>
<br>
<div>On Oct 13, 2017, at 4:23 PM, SuStel <<a
href="mailto:sustel@trimboli.name">sustel@trimboli.name</a>>
wrote:</div>
<div> </div>
<blockquote>
<div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 10/13/2017 2:55 PM,
ghunchu'wI' 'utlh wrote:</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:8BF87BC6-C4C3-4438-B264-C6831CFD9A95@alcaco.net">
<div>On Oct 13, 2017, at 12:26 PM, SuStel <<a
href="mailto:sustel@trimboli.name">sustel@trimboli.name</a>>
wrote:</div>
<blockquote>
<div>I wouldn’t make that assumption. If you must
quote a cat, say:<strong> ghugh vIghro’; jatlh
‘Imyagh</strong>.</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
<div><span style="background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255,
0);">I think that contradicts the “not speech” part
of {ghugh}’s definition. It makes perfect sense in
my mind to treat {ghugh} as similar to {jatlh}.</span></div>
</blockquote>
<p>If it's not speech, then it's not a verb of saying.</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>What is your definition of “verb of saying”, and who
called {ghugh} one?</div>
<div> </div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<div> </div>
<div>I should have "verb of speech," because that's what Okrand
called it in his interview with Will Martin in <em>HolQeD</em>
7:4. His first statement is "Verbs of speech are 'say' verbs,
like <strong>jatlh</strong> and <strong>ja'.</strong>" Then
he says that, unlike the English tendency to attach any old
verb to a quotation, Klingon doesn't do that:</div>
<div> </div>
<div style="margin-left: 30px;">In English, we say, "Give me
some water," he said. "Give me some water," he pleaded. "Give
me some water," he yelled. [...] I think that's an English
thing to do. That's not a Klingon thing to do. In Klingon, you
<strong>jatlh</strong> and you <strong>ja'.</strong> That's
about it. The guard asked the prisoner a question. He replied.
He said, "[gestures a quotation he never quite made]"</div>
<div style="margin-left: 30px;"> </div>
<div>He later admits that there may be other verbs of speech,
but that they're few. "The way I see I see the verbs of
speech, there may be more than just <strong>ja'</strong> and
<strong>jatlh,</strong> but there is only a small number of
words, unlike English."</div>
<div> </div>
<div>And the bulk of this section of the article is Okrand
explaining to Martin that verbs of speech in the <strong>'e'</strong>-less
sentence-as-object construction are used to report direct
quotations.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>So does that mean <strong>ghugh</strong> might also be a
verb of speech? Yeeeesssss, if you ignore that <strong>ghugh</strong>
is explicitly not speech. If you consider "verbs of quotation"
to be a better term to describe them, you still need to
demonstrate that <strong>ghugh</strong> is not among all the
other words that Okrand explicitly blocked from being verbs of
speech, mostly giving their English translations: <strong>tlhob,
qoy', jach, chel, jang,</strong> and that it is one of the
few that Okrand wasn't even sure existed.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>So all of that is a lot of guesswork and looking at things
sideways to get to <strong>ghugh</strong> being a verb of
speech, which is why I said "I wouldn't make that assumption"
and not "You can't do that." Hey, it DOES sound like <strong>ghugh</strong>
could be the "verb of animal noises" equivalent to "verbs of
speech," but we don't KNOW that.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>As for who called <strong>ghugh</strong> a verb of speech:
loghaD did, just not with that term:</div>
<div> </div>
<blockquote>
<div>I would assume that this word can be used similarly to
jatlh:<br>
<br>
ghugh vIghro' 'Imyagh.<br>
'Imyagh, ghugh vIghro'.<br>
"The v'gro goes 'Imyagh."</div>
</blockquote>
<div>He's talking about verbs of speech. He assumed; I said I
wouldn't make that assumption.</div>
</div>
</div>
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