[111460] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [tlhIngan Hol] qepHom grammar questions
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Steven Boozer)
Fri Oct 6 06:56:17 2017
X-Original-To: tlhingan-hol@lists.kli.org
From: Steven Boozer <sboozer@uchicago.edu>
To: "tlhingan-hol@kli.org" <tlhingan-hol@kli.org>
Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2017 15:37:24 +0000
In-Reply-To: <CAG84SOs-gBLyYp-4zpEb0K-7GC=6e-+wDahWDLgHO8-yqMBPmQ@mail.gmail.com>
Reply-To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org
Errors-To: tlhingan-hol-bounces@lists.kli.org
--===============5212645290024640155==
Content-Language: en-US
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
boundary="_000_BN4PR11MB08527225C6F1FE4FB0B7ED26C1730BN4PR11MB0852namp_"
--_000_BN4PR11MB08527225C6F1FE4FB0B7ED26C1730BN4PR11MB0852namp_
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
mayqel qunenoS:
>> 5. Duj wejwIjDIch or DujwIj wejDIch ?
nIqolay Q:
> I don't think you even need Okrand for this one. Is there any reason to
> suspect Duj wejwIjDIch even works?
None that I know of. The two number suffixes -DIch and -logh attach direct=
ly to the number, with nothing in between, or even attached to non-numbers =
such as 'ar and Hoch:
(TKD 54): Ordinal numbers (first, second, etc.) are formed by adding -DIch=
to the numbers: wa'DIch first, cha'DIch second, HutDIch ninth. Ordinal num=
bers follow the noun: meb cha'DIch second guest.
(KGT 176f): Several of these made-up words involve constructions normally =
restricted to numbers. The suffix -DIch is attached to a number to form an =
ordinal number: wa' (one), wa'DIch (first); cha' (two), cha'DIch (second); =
vagh (five), vaghDIch (fifth). Ordinal numbers follow the noun with which t=
hey are associated, as in 'avwI' vaghDIch (fifth guard), nentay wa'DIch (Fi=
rst Rite of Ascension).
Sometimes the suffix is heard attached to pagh (zero, none), producing=
the technically ungrammatical term paghDIch (zeroth). It is used to descri=
be something that was expected to occur but has not, or that could conceiva=
bly occur but has not. For example, one might say pawpu' 'avwI' paghDIch (t=
he zeroth guard has arrived), implying that no guard has arrived even thoug=
h one (and probably more than one) is expected. Similarly, one might descri=
be how to wield a painstik during the Rite of Ascension by saying: 'oy'naQ =
DaQeqDI' mIw wa'DIch Data', 'ach 'oy'naQ Dachu'DI' mIw paghDIch Data' (When=
you aim the painstik, you accomplish the first step, but when you turn the=
painstik on, you accomplish the zeroth step). The implication here is that=
activating the painstik must be done before beginning the ritualistic part=
of the ceremony.
On the other extreme, when -DIch is attached to Hoch (all), the result=
ing word, HochDIch (allth) is used as an alternate for Qav (be final, last)=
to refer to the final one of a series whose members either were counted or=
could have been counted, as in pIpyuS pach HochDIch DaSoppu' (You've eaten=
the last pipius claw). The word also may be used to describe the final ste=
p of a process. Speaking of the Rite of Ascension, one might say 'oy'naQ Da=
chu'Ha'DI' mIw HochDIch Data' (When you turn the painstik off, you accompli=
sh the last step).
(TKD 55): Adding -logh to a number gives the notion of repetitions. wa'lo=
gh once, cha'logh twice, Hutlogh nine times. These numbers function in the =
sentence as adverbials (section 5.4).
(KGT 178): The suffix -logh, when attached to numbers, is used to count th=
e number of instances of something: wa'logh (once), cha'logh (twice), vaghl=
ogh (five times).
When -logh is attached to pagh (zero), the resulting form, paghlogh (z=
ero times) is used as an emphatic alternate for not (never), as in paghlogh=
jegh tlhIngan SuvwI' (a Klingon warrior surrenders zero times)... compare =
not jegh tlhIngan SuvwI' (a Klingon warrior never surrenders).
Similarly, when -logh is attached to Hoch (all), the resulting word, H=
ochlogh (all times), is used in the same way as reH (always), as in Hochlog=
h no' yIquvmoH (All times honor your ancestors...); compare reH no' yIquvmo=
H (Always honor your ancestors).
Okrand later extended this to 'arlogh "how many times?" (st.klingon 2/1999)=
:
'arlogh wab Qoylu'pu'?
How many times has someone heard the sound?
How many times has the sound been heard? [st.k 2/1999]
qen 'arlogh Qoylu'pu'?
Recently, how many times has someone heard it?
(i.e. What time is it?) [st.k 2/1999]
--
Voragh
Ca'Non Master of the Klingons
--_000_BN4PR11MB08527225C6F1FE4FB0B7ED26C1730BN4PR11MB0852namp_
Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<html xmlns:v=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:o=3D"urn:schemas-micr=
osoft-com:office:office" xmlns:w=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" =
xmlns:m=3D"http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2004/12/omml" xmlns=3D"http:=
//www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40">
<head>
<meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dus-ascii"=
>
<meta name=3D"Generator" content=3D"Microsoft Word 15 (filtered medium)">
<style><!--
/* Font Definitions */
@font-face
{font-family:"Cambria Math";
panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:Calibri;
panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;}
/* Style Definitions */
p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal
{margin:0in;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman",serif;}
a:link, span.MsoHyperlink
{mso-style-priority:99;
color:blue;
text-decoration:underline;}
a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed
{mso-style-priority:99;
color:purple;
text-decoration:underline;}
span.EmailStyle17
{mso-style-type:personal-reply;
font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;
color:#1F497D;}
.MsoChpDefault
{mso-style-type:export-only;
font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;}
@page WordSection1
{size:8.5in 11.0in;
margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in;}
div.WordSection1
{page:WordSection1;}
--></style><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
<o:shapedefaults v:ext=3D"edit" spidmax=3D"1026" />
</xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
<o:shapelayout v:ext=3D"edit">
<o:idmap v:ext=3D"edit" data=3D"1" />
</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]-->
</head>
<body lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">mayqel qunenoS: <br>
>> 5. <b>Duj wejwIjDIch</b> or <b>DujwIj wejDIch</b> ?<o:p></o:=
p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ca=
libri",sans-serif">nIqolay Q:<br>
</span>> I don't think you even need Okrand for this one. Is there=
any reason to<br>
> suspect <b>Duj wejwIjDIch</b> even works?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">None that I know of. The two number suffixes &=
#8211;<b>DIch</b> and –<b>logh</b> attach directly to the number, wit=
h nothing in between, or even attached to non-numbers such as
<b>‘ar </b>and <b>Hoch</b>:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
(TKD 54): Ordinal numbers (first, second, etc.) are formed by adding =
-<b>DIch</b> to the numbers:
<b>wa'DIch</b> <i>first</i>, <b>cha'DIch</b> <i>second</i>, <b>HutDIch</b> =
<i>ninth</i>. Ordinal numbers follow the noun:
<b>meb cha'DIch</b> <i>second guest</i>. <br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">(KGT 176f): Several of these made-up words inv=
olve constructions normally restricted to numbers. The suffix -<b>DIch</b> =
is attached to a number to form an ordinal number:
<b>wa'</b> (<i>one</i>), <b>wa'DIch</b> (<i>first</i>); <b>cha'</b> (<i>two=
</i>),
<b>cha'DIch</b> (<i>second</i>); <b>vagh</b> (<i>five</i>), <b>vaghDIch</b>=
(<i>fifth</i>). Ordinal numbers follow the noun with which they are associ=
ated, as in
<b>'avwI' vaghDIch</b> (<i>fifth guard</i>), <b>nentay wa'DIch</b> (<i>Firs=
t Rite of Ascension</i>).
<br>
Sometimes the suffix is heard attached to <b>=
pagh</b> (<i>zero</i>, <i>none</i>), producing the technically ungrammatica=
l term
<b>paghDIch</b> (<i>zeroth</i>). It is used to describe something that was =
expected to occur but has not, or that could conceivably occur but has not.=
For example, one might say
<b>pawpu' 'avwI' paghDIch</b> (<i>the zeroth guard has arrived</i>), implyi=
ng that no guard has arrived even though one (and probably more than one) i=
s expected. Similarly, one might describe how to wield a painstik during th=
e Rite of Ascension by saying:
<b>'oy'naQ DaQeqDI' mIw wa'DIch Data'</b>, <b>'ach 'oy'naQ Dachu'DI' mIw pa=
ghDIch Data'</b> (<i>When you aim the painstik</i>,<i> you accomplish the f=
irst step</i>,<i> but when you turn the painstik on, you accomplish the zer=
oth step</i>). The implication here
is that activating the painstik must be done before beginning the ritualis=
tic part of the ceremony.
<br>
On the other extreme, when -<b>DIch</b> is at=
tached to <b>Hoch</b> (<i>all</i>), the resulting word,
<b>HochDIch</b> (<i>allth</i>) is used as an alternate for <b>Qav</b> (<i>b=
e final, last</i>) to refer to the final one of a series whose members eith=
er were counted or could have been counted, as in
<b>pIpyuS pach HochDIch DaSoppu'</b> (<i>You've eaten the last </i>pipius<i=
> claw</i>). The word also may be used to describe the final step of a proc=
ess. Speaking of the Rite of Ascension, one might say
<b>'oy'naQ Dachu'Ha'DI' mIw HochDIch Data'</b> (<i>When you turn the painst=
ik off, you accomplish the last step</i>).
<br>
<br>
<span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;=
color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">(TKD 55): Adding -<b>logh</b> to a numbe=
r gives the notion of repetitions.
<b>wa'logh</b> <i>once</i>, <b>cha'logh</b> <i>twice</i>, <b>Hutlogh</b> <i=
>nine</i>
<i>times</i>. These numbers function in the sentence as adverbials (section=
5.4).<span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-=
serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ca=
libri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">(KGT 178): The suffix -<b>logh</b>, when attac=
hed to numbers, is used to count the number of instances of something:
<b>wa'logh</b> (<i>once</i>), <b>cha'logh</b> (<i>twice</i>), <b>vaghlogh</=
b> (<i>five times</i>).
<br>
When -<b>logh</b> is attached to <b>pagh</b> =
(<i>zero</i>), the resulting form,
<b>paghlogh</b> (<i>zero times</i>) is used as an emphatic alternate for <b=
>not</b> (<i>never</i>), as in
<b>paghlogh jegh tlhIngan SuvwI'</b> (<i>a Klingon warrior surrenders zero =
times</i>)... compare
<b>not jegh tlhIngan SuvwI'</b> (<i>a Klingon warrior never surrenders</i>)=
. <br>
Similarly, when -<b>logh</b> is attached to <=
b>Hoch</b> (<i>all</i>), the resulting word,
<b>Hochlogh</b> (<i>all times</i>), is used in the same way as <b>reH</b> (=
<i>always</i>), as in
<b>Hochlogh no' yIquvmoH</b> (<i>All times honor your ancestors</i>...); co=
mpare <b>
reH no' yIquvmoH</b> (<i>Always honor your ancestors</i>).<br>
<br>
<span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;=
color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Okrand later extended this to <b>'arlogh</b> "h=
ow many times?" (st.klingon 2/1999):<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
<b>'arlogh wab Qoylu'pu'</b>? <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">How many times has someone heard the sound? <o:p></o=
:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">How many times has the sound been heard? [st.k 2/199=
9]<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
<b>qen</b> <b>'arlogh Qoylu'pu'</b>? <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Recently, how many times has someone heard it?<o:p><=
/o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">(<i>i.e</i>. What time is it?) [st.k 2/1999] <br>
<br>
<span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;=
color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ca=
libri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><br>
--<br>
Voragh<br>
Ca'Non Master of the Klingons<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ca=
libri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ca=
libri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
</body>
</html>
--_000_BN4PR11MB08527225C6F1FE4FB0B7ED26C1730BN4PR11MB0852namp_--
--===============5212645290024640155==
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: inline
_______________________________________________
tlhIngan-Hol mailing list
tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org
http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
--===============5212645290024640155==--
