[111402] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [tlhIngan Hol] qepHom grammar questions
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (nIqolay Q)
Fri Oct 6 03:11:06 2017
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In-Reply-To: <cabf7041-c744-c915-1486-1ee6e2027198@trimboli.name>
From: nIqolay Q <niqolay0@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2017 12:33:38 -0400
To: "tlhingan-hol@kli.org" <tlhingan-hol@kli.org>
Reply-To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org
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On Wed, Oct 4, 2017 at 12:14 PM, SuStel <sustel@trimboli.name> wrote:
> I don't think you can use it for any application of *-vaD,* only for when
> *-vaD* indicates an indirect object. In your *qaHoHqang* example, for
> instance, *SoH* is not an indirect object: *SoH* benefits from the
> action, but the action does not result in something actually given to
> *SoH.*
>
Out of the three verbs I can think of that have been used with the prefix
trick -- *nob*, *'ang*, and *jatlh* -- only the first involves actually
giving someone something. In the case of *tIqwIj Sa'angnIS* or *tlhIngan
Hol qajatlh*, *tlhIH* or *SoH* are benefiting from the action but aren't
really getting anything out of it physically.
(Also, is the assumed distinction between meanings of *-vaD* a carryover
from the ways that suffix is translated into English? Do Klingon
grammarians make a distinction between the *jIHvaD* in *jiHvaD taj Danobpu'*
and in *jIHvaD qab tera'ngan Soj 'Iq*?)
> I think the prefix trick works because Klingon prefixes must agree with
> the "object" of the verb, not necessarily only the "direct object." In
> certain cases where it is clear that a direct object is not being agreed
> with, the prefix can agree with an otherwise unstated indirect object. It's
> not that prefixes can agree with any object they like, direct or indirect;
> it's just that under certain circumstances the prefix can be reassigned to
> do different work than it usually does.
>
That's why my examples have explicitly third-person direct objects (or, in
the case of *muqab**, a stative verb that can't have a direct object at
all), so that it is clear that a direct object is not being agreed with.
On Wed, Oct 4, 2017 at 12:14 PM, SuStel <sustel@trimboli.name> wrote:
> On 10/4/2017 12:00 PM, nIqolay Q wrote:
>
> On Wed, Oct 4, 2017 at 4:58 AM, mayqel qunenoS <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> It is highly unlikely, that a mere mortal -i.e. someone who isn't a
>> friend of maltz-, would ask and his question would be answered..
>>
>> However, since even us -the little people-, are allowed to dream, I would
>> like to ask that these questions are eventually clarified at the qepHom to
>> come..
>>
>> 1. the prefix of a verb, which follows {joq}, if both nouns joined by it
>> are singular.
>> 2. the prefix of a verb, which follows {joq}, if one of the nouns is
>> plural.
>> 3. the {ngIq}.
>> 4. the {vabDot} (although I'm not quite certain, that the clarification
>> needed here, is with regards to the grammar, or its meaning).
>> 5. {Duj wejwIjDIch} or {DujwIj wejDIch} ?
>> 6. Can we have two {qu'} or two {be'} on the same word ?
>>
>
> I have a question of my own I'd like to ask: how far does the prefix trick
> stretch? Can it only be used with some verbs or some meanings of *-vaD*?
> Or is any use of *-vaD* eligible (provided all the relevant nouns are in
> the correct person)? For instance, do these work:
> *bangwI', SoHvaD wa'SaD SuvwI' vIHoHqang* -> *bangwI', wa'SaD SuvwI'
> qaHoHqang **"My love, I'd kill a thousand warriors for you."*
> *jIHvaD DuSaQwIj Deq qawmoH qachvetlh* -> *DuSaQwIj Deq muqawmoH
> qachvetlh* *"That building reminds me of my old school."*
> *jIHvaD qab tera'ngan Soj 'Iq* -> *muqab tera'ngan Soj 'Iq* *"Too much
> Terran food is bad for me."* (*chaq DaH jIwoghpu'...*)
>
> These are questions I brought up when the prefix trick was first explained
> to us (I was not a fan, and I still think it was Okrand's way of covering
> sloppy translations from English). I don't think you can use it for any
> application of *-vaD,* only for when *-vaD* indicates an indirect object.
> In your *qaHoHqang* example, for instance, *SoH* is not an indirect
> object: *SoH* benefits from the action, but the action does not result in
> something actually given to *SoH.*
>
> I think the prefix trick works because Klingon prefixes must agree with
> the "object" of the verb, not necessarily only the "direct object." In
> certain cases where it is clear that a direct object is not being agreed
> with, the prefix can agree with an otherwise unstated indirect object. It's
> not that prefixes can agree with any object they like, direct or indirect;
> it's just that under certain circumstances the prefix can be reassigned to
> do different work than it usually does.
>
> --
> SuStelhttp://trimboli.name
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> tlhIngan-Hol mailing list
> tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org
> http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
>
>
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">=
On Wed, Oct 4, 2017 at 12:14 PM, SuStel <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:sustel@trimboli.name" target=3D"_blank">sustel@trimboli.name</a>></=
span> wrote: <br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px =
0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div bgc=
olor=3D"#FFFFFF"><p>I
don't think you can use it for any application of <b>-vaD,</b>
only for when <b>-vaD</b> indicates an indirect object. In your <b>qa=
HoHqang</b>
example, for instance, <b>SoH</b> is not an indirect object: <b>SoH</=
b>
benefits from the action, but the action does not result in
something actually given to <b>SoH.</b></p></div></blockquote><div>Ou=
t of the three verbs I can think of that have been used with the prefix tri=
ck -- <b>nob</b>, <b>'ang</b>, and <b>jatlh</b> -- only the first invol=
ves actually giving someone something. In the case of <b>tIqwIj Sa'angn=
IS</b> or <b>tlhIngan Hol qajatlh</b>, <b>tlhIH</b> or <b>SoH</b> are benef=
iting from the action but aren't really getting anything out of it phys=
ically. <br></div><div><br></div><div>(Also, is the assumed distinction bet=
ween meanings of <b>-vaD</b> a carryover from the ways that suffix is trans=
lated into English? Do Klingon grammarians make a distinction between the <=
b>jIHvaD</b> in <b>jiHvaD taj Danobpu'</b> and in <b>jIHvaD qab tera=
9;ngan Soj 'Iq</b>?)</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"ma=
rgin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:=
1ex"><div bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF">
<p>I think the prefix trick works because Klingon prefixes must
agree with the "object" of the verb, not necessarily only t=
he
"direct object." In certain cases where it is clear that a =
direct
object is not being agreed with, the prefix can agree with an
otherwise unstated indirect object. It's not that prefixes can
agree with any object they like, direct or indirect; it's just
that under certain circumstances the prefix can be reassigned to
do different work than it usually does.<span class=3D"gmail-HOEnZb"><=
/span></p></div></blockquote><div><div>That's why my examples have expl=
icitly third-person direct objects (or, in the case of <b>muqab*</b>, a sta=
tive verb that can't have a direct object at all), so that it is clear =
that a direct object is not being agreed with.<br></div></div></div><br></d=
iv></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, =
Oct 4, 2017 at 12:14 PM, SuStel <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:sus=
tel@trimboli.name" target=3D"_blank">sustel@trimboli.name</a>></span> wr=
ote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border=
-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
=20
=20
=20
<div text=3D"#000000" bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF"><div><div class=3D"h5">
<div class=3D"m_5709028297015172265moz-cite-prefix">On 10/4/2017 12:00 =
PM, nIqolay Q wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">On
Wed, Oct 4, 2017 at 4:58 AM, mayqel qunenoS <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a =
href=3D"mailto:mihkoun@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">mihkoun@gmail.com</a>&g=
t;</span> wrote:<br>
<div class=3D"gmail_extra">
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;bord=
er-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div dir=3D"auto">It is highly unlikely, that a mere mortal
-i.e. someone who isn't a friend of maltz-, would ask and
his question would be answered..=C2=A0
<div dir=3D"auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir=3D"auto">However, since even us -the little
people-, are allowed to dream, I would like to ask that
these questions are eventually clarified at the qepHom
to come..
<div dir=3D"auto">
<div dir=3D"auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir=3D"auto">1. the prefix of a verb, which follows
{joq}, if both nouns joined by it are singular.</div>
<div dir=3D"auto">2. the prefix of a verb, which follows
{joq}, if one of the nouns is plural.</div>
<div dir=3D"auto">3. the {ngIq}.</div>
<div dir=3D"auto">4. the {vabDot} (although I'm not
quite certain, that the clarification needed here,
is with regards to the grammar, or its meaning).</div>
<div dir=3D"auto">5. {Duj wejwIjDIch} or {DujwIj
wejDIch} ?</div>
<div dir=3D"auto">6. Can we have two {qu'} or two {be=
'}
on the same word ?<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I have a question of my own I'd like to ask: how far doe=
s
the prefix trick stretch? Can it only be used with some
verbs or some meanings of <b>-vaD</b>? Or is any use of <b>-vaD=
</b>
eligible (provided all the relevant nouns are in the correct
person)? For instance, do these work:</div>
<div><b>bangwI', SoHvaD wa'SaD SuvwI' vIHoHqang</b> -=
> <b>bangwI',
wa'SaD SuvwI' qaHoHqang </b><i>"My love, I'd=
kill a
thousand warriors for you."</i><br>
</div>
<div><b>jIHvaD DuSaQwIj Deq qawmoH qachvetlh</b> -> <b>DuSaQwI=
j
Deq muqawmoH qachvetlh</b> <i>"That building reminds me
of my old school."</i></div>
<div><b>jIHvaD qab tera'ngan Soj 'Iq</b> -> <b>muqab
tera'ngan Soj 'Iq</b> <i>"Too much Terran food i=
s bad for
me."</i> (<b>chaq DaH jIwoghpu'...</b>)</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div></div><p>These are questions I brought up when the prefix trick w=
as first
explained to us (I was not a fan, and I still think it was
Okrand's way of covering sloppy translations from English). I
don't think you can use it for any application of <b>-vaD,</b>
only for when <b>-vaD</b> indicates an indirect object. In your <b>qa=
HoHqang</b>
example, for instance, <b>SoH</b> is not an indirect object: <b>SoH</=
b>
benefits from the action, but the action does not result in
something actually given to <b>SoH.</b></p>
<p>I think the prefix trick works because Klingon prefixes must
agree with the "object" of the verb, not necessarily only t=
he
"direct object." In certain cases where it is clear that a =
direct
object is not being agreed with, the prefix can agree with an
otherwise unstated indirect object. It's not that prefixes can
agree with any object they like, direct or indirect; it's just
that under certain circumstances the prefix can be reassigned to
do different work than it usually does.<span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font c=
olor=3D"#888888"><br>
<b></b></font></span></p><span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#88888=
8">
<pre class=3D"m_5709028297015172265moz-signature" cols=3D"72">--=20
SuStel
<a class=3D"m_5709028297015172265moz-txt-link-freetext" href=3D"http://trim=
boli.name" target=3D"_blank">http://trimboli.name</a></pre>
</font></span></div>
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><br>
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oreferrer" target=3D"_blank">http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.<wbr>cgi/tlhinga=
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<br></blockquote></div><br></div>
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