[111021] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [tlhIngan Hol] Spoils of war
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (SuStel)
Sat Sep 16 04:42:29 2017
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To: tlhingan-hol@lists.kli.org
From: SuStel <sustel@trimboli.name>
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2017 12:02:35 -0400
In-Reply-To: <CALPi+eTp7Q5AqyTo18xpSb=7mjNo4ywOx-R8bvR==XNZgKeh3Q@mail.gmail.com>
Reply-To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org
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On 9/14/2017 11:53 AM, qurgh lungqIj wrote:
> On Thu, Sep 14, 2017 at 11:36 AM, SuStel <sustel@trimboli.name
> <mailto:sustel@trimboli.name>> wrote:
>
> On 9/14/2017 11:27 AM, qurgh lungqIj wrote:
>> On Thu, Sep 14, 2017 at 11:14 AM, SuStel <sustel@trimboli.name
>> <mailto:sustel@trimboli.name>> wrote:
>>
>> On 9/14/2017 11:01 AM, qurgh lungqIj wrote:
>>
>> Remember that Klingons conquer. They take control of
>> planets once they defeat the current owners of it. They
>> then use the resources on that planet to build more ships
>> etc. They don't care about taking the stuff that belongs
>> to the locals.
>>
>>
>> Let's not go making up new cultural details to justify not
>> knowing a word. Do Klingons never raid a place and take the
>> stuff from it? Suppose they raided a Cardassian base during
>> the war with the Dominion. They didn't stay to govern. Did
>> they take nothing? What about Leskit from "Soldiers of the
>> Empire," who wore a necklace of Cardassian neck bones?
>>
>>
>> So I made up the concept that Klingons conquer stuff?
>
> No, you made up the concept that Klingons don't care about taking
> the stuff that belongs to the locals.
>
> Based on Star Trek canon that we have seen so far, they generally
> don't. I'm not making anything up, simply relaying what we know based
> on what's been shown that may help explain why "spoils of war" may not
> be a concept that Klingons focus on enough to have a specific word for.
>
> In "Once More Unto the Breach" they do a "cavalry raid" against the
> Dominion and attack without taking anything.
>
> In "Errand of Mercy" when they conquer Organia but there's no evidence
> that they take anything from the locals. They just want the planet due
> to it's position.
>
> If there's Trek canon that shows Klingons invading somewhere, and then
> leaving with stuff, share it with us. As far as I recall I don't know any.
>
> I'm trying to give qunnoq some show background that may help him look
> at this from a in-universe point of view.
I never put forward the claim that Klingons absolutely do take spoils. I
simply suggested not making up the idea that they don't.
I DO claim that it would be HIGHLY unbelievable if a warrior culture
never took anything from anyone it raided. Even if we assumed it was not
honorable to take the stuff of the vanquished, which I don't assume—"In
war, there is nothing more honorable than victory"—it's not like
Klingons aren't known to behave dishonorably all the frickin' time.
So no, I'm not going to do a survey of Klingon episodes to find evidence
of spoils, because that is not what I said in the first place. If I
happen to think of something, I'll post it.
--
SuStel
http://trimboli.name
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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 9/14/2017 11:53 AM, qurgh lungqIj
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CALPi+eTp7Q5AqyTo18xpSb=7mjNo4ywOx-R8bvR==XNZgKeh3Q@mail.gmail.com">On
Thu, Sep 14, 2017 at 11:36 AM, SuStel <span dir="ltr"><<a
href="mailto:sustel@trimboli.name" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">sustel@trimboli.name</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF"><span class="gmail-">
<div class="gmail-m_3476630140364036254moz-cite-prefix">On
9/14/2017 11:27 AM, qurgh lungqIj wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">On Thu, Sep 14, 2017 at 11:14 AM,
SuStel <span dir="ltr"><<a
href="mailto:sustel@trimboli.name" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">sustel@trimboli.name</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><span
class="gmail-m_3476630140364036254gmail-">On 9/14/2017
11:01 AM, qurgh lungqIj wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px
0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"> Remember that
Klingons conquer. They take control of planets once
they defeat the current owners of it. They then use
the resources on that planet to build more ships
etc. They don't care about taking the stuff that
belongs to the locals. <br>
</blockquote>
<br>
</span> Let's not go making up new cultural details to
justify not knowing a word. Do Klingons never raid a
place and take the stuff from it? Suppose they raided a
Cardassian base during the war with the Dominion. They
didn't stay to govern. Did they take nothing? What about
Leskit from "Soldiers of the Empire," who wore a
necklace of Cardassian neck bones?</blockquote>
<div><br>
So I made up the concept that Klingons conquer stuff? </div>
</blockquote>
</span>
<p>No, you made up the concept that Klingons don't care about
taking the stuff that belongs to the locals.</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>Based on Star Trek canon that we have seen so far, they
generally don't. I'm not making anything up, simply relaying
what we know based on what's been shown that may help explain
why "spoils of war" may not be a concept that Klingons focus on
enough to have a specific word for. <br>
<br>
In "Once More Unto the Breach" they do a "cavalry raid" against
the Dominion and attack without taking anything.<br>
<br>
In "Errand of Mercy" when they conquer Organia but there's no
evidence that they take anything from the locals. They just want
the planet due to it's position.<br>
<br>
If there's Trek canon that shows Klingons invading somewhere,
and then leaving with stuff, share it with us. As far as I
recall I don't know any.<br>
<br>
I'm trying to give qunnoq some show background that may help him
look at this from a in-universe point of view. </div>
</blockquote>
<p>I never put forward the claim that Klingons absolutely do take
spoils. I simply suggested not making up the idea that they don't.</p>
<p>I DO claim that it would be HIGHLY unbelievable if a warrior
culture never took anything from anyone it raided. Even if we
assumed it was not honorable to take the stuff of the vanquished,
which I don't assume—"In war, there is nothing more honorable than
victory"—it's not like Klingons aren't known to behave
dishonorably all the frickin' time.</p>
<p>So no, I'm not going to do a survey of Klingon episodes to find
evidence of spoils, because that is not what I said in the first
place. If I happen to think of something, I'll post it.<br>
</p>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
SuStel
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://trimboli.name">http://trimboli.name</a></pre>
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