[110914] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [tlhIngan Hol] The grammatical number of NOUN + 'ar
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Steven Boozer)
Sat Sep 9 05:11:18 2017
X-Original-To: tlhingan-hol@lists.kli.org
From: Steven Boozer <sboozer@uchicago.edu>
To: "tlhingan-hol@kli.org" <tlhingan-hol@kli.org>
Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2017 13:15:53 +0000
In-Reply-To: <1504869359320.3090@kth.se>
Reply-To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org
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I think Okrand simply meant that 'ar cannot follow a noun with a plural suf=
fix, which is how I've always understood it.
Examples of 'ar following a grammatically singular mass noun where it's tra=
nslated "how much":
nIn 'ar wIghaj
How much fuel do we have left? TKD/CK/PK
Huch 'ar DaneH?
How much money do you want? TKD
Dochvetlh DIlmeH Huch 'ar DaneH
How much do you want for that? TKD
Examples of 'ar following a regular count noun without a plural suffix wher=
e it's translated "how many":
Haw'pu' yaS 'ar
How many officers fled? TKD
mughoS 'avwI' 'ar
How many guards are coming? CK
There were fewer examples than I expected - and none from the paq'balth AFA=
IK.
--Voragh
From: Felix Malmenbeck
In TKD =A76.4, this is written of the word 'ar:
------------
Finally, 'ar how many? how much? follows the noun to which it refers. It ca=
n never follow a noun with a plural suffix
(-pu', -mey, -Du'; see section 3.3.2).
------------
I've always taken this to mean that a noun followed by 'ar is grammatically=
singular, and so we must say, for example, qachvam Dab nuv 'ar?, rather th=
an *qachvam luDab nuv 'ar?*.
However, it now strikes me that there is another possible interpretation, n=
amely that while the noun followed by 'ar is never marked with a plural suf=
fix, it could still be considered grammatically plural, and thus allow for =
sentences such as *qachvam luDab nuv 'ar?*.
Unfortunately, the canonical example sentences we have using 'ar don't real=
ly shine much of a light on this. The only example I've found that uses a =
number-specific verb prefix to go with the NOUN + 'ar construct is nIn 'ar =
wIghaj. ("How much fuel do we have?") However, this example is of limited u=
se, as the quantity of nIn ("fuel") is a presumably continuous, rather than=
discrete; while we would normally treat nIn law' and nIn puS as singular, =
we would treat nuv law' and nuv puS as plural.
Can anybody think of any examples that could help to resolve this matter? O=
r is there an unofficial but commonly accepted answer?
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<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ca=
libri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">I think Okrand simply meant that
<b>‘ar</b> cannot follow a noun with a plural suffix, which is how I&=
#8217;ve always understood it.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b> <o:p></o:p></b></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Examples of <b>‘ar</b> following a grammatical=
ly singular mass noun where it’s translated “how much”:<o=
:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><br>
nIn 'ar wIghaj</b> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><b> </b>Ho=
w much fuel do we have left?<b>
</b> TKD/CK/PK<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b> Huch 'ar DaneH?</b> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><b> </b>Ho=
w much money do you want? TKD<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b> Dochvetlh DIlmeH Huch 'ar DaneH</b> <o:p><=
/o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><b> </b>Ho=
w much do you want for that? TKD<b><o:p></o:p></b></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Examples of <b>‘ar</b> following a regular cou=
nt noun without a plural suffix where it’s translated “how many=
”:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><o:p> </o:p></b></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b> Haw'pu' yaS 'ar</b> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><b> </b>Ho=
w many officers fled?<i> </i>TKD<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b> mughoS 'avwI' 'ar <o:p></o:p></b></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><b> </b>Ho=
w many guards are coming?
<b> </b>CK <span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri&q=
uot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ca=
libri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">There were fewer examples than I expe=
cted – and none from the paq’balth AFAIK.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ca=
libri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ca=
libri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">--Voragh<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ca=
libri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><b><span style=3D"fon=
t-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">From:</span></b><=
span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">=
Felix Malmenbeck<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p><span style=3D"font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">I=
n TKD =A76.4, this is written of the word
<strong><span style=3D"font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">'ar</spa=
n></strong>:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span style=3D"font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">-=
-----------<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"=
>Finally, <strong><span style=3D"font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif=
">'ar</span></strong> <em><span style=3D"font-family:"Calibri",sa=
ns-serif">how many? how much?</span></em> follows the noun to which it refe=
rs. It can never follow a noun with a plural suffix<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"=
>(-<strong><span style=3D"font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">pu'</=
span></strong>, -<strong><span style=3D"font-family:"Calibri",san=
s-serif">mey</span></strong>, -<strong><span style=3D"font-family:"Cal=
ibri",sans-serif">Du'</span></strong>; see section 3.3.2).</span><span=
style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<p><span style=3D"font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">-=
-----------<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span style=3D"font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><=
o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p><span style=3D"font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">I=
've always taken this to mean that a noun followed by
<strong><span style=3D"font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">'ar</spa=
n></strong> is grammatically singular, and so we must say, for example=
,
<strong><span style=3D"font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">qachvam&=
nbsp;Dab nuv 'ar?</span></strong>, rather than *qachvam luDab nuv 'ar?*.<o:=
p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span style=3D"font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><=
o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p><span style=3D"font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">H=
owever, it now strikes me that there is another possible interpretation, na=
mely that while the noun followed by
<strong><span style=3D"font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">'ar</spa=
n></strong> is never marked with a plural <em><span style=3D=
"font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">suffix</span></em>, it could s=
till be considered grammatically plural, and thus allow for sentences =
such
as *qachvam luDab nuv 'ar?*.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span style=3D"font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><=
o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p><span style=3D"font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">U=
nfortunately, the canonical example sentences we have using <strong><s=
pan style=3D"font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">'ar</span></strong=
> don't really shine much of a light on this. The only example
I've found that uses a number-specific verb prefix to go with the NO=
UN + <strong>
<span style=3D"font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">'ar</span></stro=
ng> construct is <strong>
<span style=3D"font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">nIn 'ar wIghaj.<=
/span></strong> ("How much fuel do we have?") However, this =
example is of limited use, as the quantity of
<strong><span style=3D"font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">nIn</spa=
n></strong> ("fuel") is a presumably continuous, rather than=
discrete; while we would normally treat
<strong><span style=3D"font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">nIn law'=
</span></strong> and
<strong><span style=3D"font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">nIn puS<=
/span></strong> as singular, we would treat
<strong><span style=3D"font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">nuv law'=
</span></strong> and
<strong><span style=3D"font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">nuv puS<=
/span></strong> as plural.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span style=3D"font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black"><=
o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p><span style=3D"font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black">C=
an anybody think of any examples that could help to resolve this matter? Or=
is there an unofficial but commonly accepted answer?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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