[110579] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [tlhIngan Hol] Hoch HochHom and pronouns
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (SuStel)
Fri Aug 11 16:10:27 2017
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From: SuStel <sustel@trimboli.name>
Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2017 16:09:52 -0400
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On 8/11/2017 1:38 PM, mayqel qunenoS wrote:
> I wonder whether the following are correct.
>
> wa' jaj maHegh Hoch
> one day we will all die
>
> wa' jaj maHegh HochHom
> one day most of us will die
>
> wa' jaj maHegh Hoch maH
> one day all we will die
>
> wa' jaj maHegh maH Hoch
> one day all of us will die
>
> wa' jaj maHegh HochHom maH
> one day we almost all will die
>
> wa' jaj maHegh maH HochHom
> one day most of us will die
>
> wa' jaj Hegh Hoch chaH
> one day all they will die
>
> wa' jaj Hegh chaH Hoch
> one day all of them will die
>
> wa' jaj Hegh HochHom chaH
> one day they almost all will die
>
> wa' jaj Hegh chaH HochHom
> one day most of them will die
>
> And I wonder whether there are canon examples of {Hoch} and/or
> {HochHom} used as subjects of a verb with the prefix {ma-}.
>
> And whether there are canon examples of {Hoch} and/or {HochHom} placed
> before, or after pronouns.
People try to do these things all the time, because they're trying to
reproduce the expressions used by English or some other language. But
most of these violate the rule of *rom*, that verb prefixes must agree
with subjects and objects. Yes, sometimes those rules are violated by
Klingons under certain circumstances, but we humans should be making up
our own circumstances.
*wa' jaj maHegh Hoch*/
one day we will all die
/
*Hoch* is a third-person noun, not a first-person noun, so the verb
prefix must agree with a third-person subject. Say either *wa' jaj
maHegh*/one day we will die/ or *wa' jaj Hegh Hoch*/one day everyone
will die./ This goes for *HochHom* variants too.
While this is not positive evidence, I will point out that /paq'batlh/ has
*naDev Sughompu'
'ej Qo'noS SuvwI'pu' Hem tlhIH
qeylIS tIghmey'e'
DaH tIQoy...*
/Hear now,
All of you here,
Proud warriors of Kronos
The ways of Kahless.../
The translator declined to say *Hoch tlhIH* or *tlhIH Hoch* for /all of
you./
*wa' jaj maHegh Hoch maH/wa' jaj maHegh maH Hoch*
/one day all we will die/
Assuming either of *Hoch maH* or *maH Hoch *is valid for /all of us/ (as
opposed to /some of us/ or/none of us/), then this works. But I don't
think we know that those are valid. Likewise with *HochHom* variants.
--
SuStel
http://trimboli.name
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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 8/11/2017 1:38 PM, mayqel qunenoS
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CAP7F2cKnYR5V4pUdmEvz5NuU4w+tZ9S9H-xAunCEpibYJKPGXw@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">I wonder whether the following are correct.
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">wa' jaj maHegh Hoch</div>
<div dir="auto">one day we will all die</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">wa' jaj maHegh HochHom</div>
<div dir="auto">one day most of us will die</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">wa' jaj maHegh Hoch maH</div>
<div dir="auto">one day all we will die</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">wa' jaj maHegh maH Hoch</div>
<div dir="auto">one day all of us will die</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">wa' jaj maHegh HochHom maH</div>
<div dir="auto">one day we almost all will die</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">wa' jaj maHegh maH HochHom</div>
<div dir="auto">one day most of us will die</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">wa' jaj Hegh Hoch chaH</div>
<div dir="auto">one day all they will die</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">wa' jaj Hegh chaH Hoch</div>
<div dir="auto">one day all of them will die</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">wa' jaj Hegh HochHom chaH</div>
<div dir="auto">one day they almost all will die</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">wa' jaj Hegh chaH HochHom</div>
<div dir="auto">one day most of them will die</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">And I wonder whether there are canon examples of
{Hoch} and/or {HochHom} used as subjects of a verb with the
prefix {ma-}.</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">And whether there are canon examples of {Hoch}
and/or {HochHom} placed before, or after pronouns.</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
<p>People try to do these things all the time, because they're
trying to reproduce the expressions used by English or some other
language. But most of these violate the rule of <b>rom</b>, that
verb prefixes must agree with subjects and objects. Yes, sometimes
those rules are violated by Klingons under certain circumstances,
but we humans should be making up our own circumstances.</p>
<div dir="auto">
<p><b>wa' jaj maHegh Hoch</b><i><br>
one day we will all die<br>
</i></p>
<p><b>Hoch</b> is a third-person noun, not a first-person noun, so
the verb prefix must agree with a third-person subject. Say
either <b>wa' jaj maHegh</b><i> one day we will die</i> or <b>wa'
jaj Hegh Hoch</b><i> one day everyone will die.</i> This goes
for <b>HochHom</b> variants too.</p>
<p>While this is not positive evidence, I will point out that <i>paq'batlh</i>
has</p>
<blockquote>
<p><b>naDev Sughompu'<br>
'ej Qo'noS SuvwI'pu' Hem tlhIH<br>
qeylIS tIghmey'e'<br>
DaH tIQoy...</b></p>
<p><i>Hear now,<br>
All of you here,<br>
Proud warriors of Kronos<br>
The ways of Kahless...</i></p>
</blockquote>
<p>The translator declined to say <b>Hoch tlhIH</b> or <b>tlhIH
Hoch</b> for <i>all of you.</i><br>
</p>
<div dir="auto">
<p><b>wa' jaj maHegh Hoch maH/wa' jaj maHegh maH Hoch</b><br>
<i>one day all we will die</i></p>
<p>Assuming either of <b>Hoch maH</b> or <b>maH Hoch </b>is
valid for <i>all of us</i> (as opposed to <i>some of us</i>
or<i> none of us</i>), then this works. But I don't think we
know that those are valid. Likewise with <b>HochHom</b>
variants.<br>
</p>
</div>
</div>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
SuStel
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://trimboli.name">http://trimboli.name</a></pre>
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