[110408] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [tlhIngan Hol] Using object prefix with {-vo'}
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (mayqel qunenoS)
Wed Aug 9 10:57:37 2017
X-Original-To: tlhingan-hol@lists.kli.org
In-Reply-To: <246af531-9d69-d0fc-b1de-e5fe7878cc51@trimboli.name>
From: mayqel qunenoS <mihkoun@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2017 17:57:33 +0300
To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org
Reply-To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org
Errors-To: tlhingan-hol-bounces@lists.kli.org
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So, to summarize..
{juH vIjaH} "I go to the house" =3D correct
{juHDaq vIjaH} "I go to the house" =3D correct but redundant
{juHvo' jIjaH} "I go away from the house" =3D correct
{juHvo' vIjaH} "I go away from the house" =3D awkward and maybe
wrong/problematic.
Right ?
qunnoq jan puqloD
On 9 Aug 2017 5:37 pm, "SuStel" <sustel@trimboli.name> wrote:
On 8/9/2017 10:18 AM, Aur=C3=A9lie Demonchaux wrote:
*juHDaq vIjaH* is considered redundant because the object of *jaH* inherent=
ly
> includes a locative sense. Anything you *jaH* is something you're *jaH*
> -ing *to.*
>
> There is no inherent "away from" sense to *jaH,* so *juHvo' vIjaH* is
> probably an awkward phrase, if not downright disallowed.
>
On the other hand, the Klingon Dictionary uses the below examples:
{pa'Daq yIjaH} <Go to the room.> (section 3.3.5., p27)
{pa'vo' yIjaH} <Leave the room!> (section 3.3.5., p28)
{jolpa'Daq yIjaH} <Go to the transport room!> (section 7.1, p73)
So it seems ok and cannon to use -Daq and -vo' suffixes along with <jaH>.
I didn't say it wasn't. Specifically, I said that a *-vo'* noun *as the
object of* *jaH* might not work (and only might). I didn't say anything
about a *-vo'* noun that isn't the object of *jaH.* In the TKD example
above, you can't tell whether *pa'vo' yIjaH* has *pa'vo'* as the object of
*jaH* or as a syntactic noun at the beginning.
Also, Okrand has revised his use of *-Daq* a little since TKD came out. For
instance, in PK (before the *HolQeD *article where he talks about verbs of
motion) he says *naDevvo' vaS'a'Daq majaHlaH'a'** can we get to the Great
Hall from here?* According to the *HolQeD* interview, that should mean *can
we, in the Great Hall, go from here?*
When Okrand revises the rules, I see that as invoking the statement in
TKD's introduction that warns that the grammar is only a poorly understood
sketch.
So the validity of those examples in TKD to verify this point must be
considered suspect.
--=20
SuStelhttp://trimboli.name
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<div dir=3D"auto">So, to summarize..<div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D=
"auto">{juH vIjaH} "I go to the house" =3D correct</div><div dir=
=3D"auto"><span style=3D"font-family:sans-serif">{juHDaq vIjaH} "I go =
to the house" =3D correct but redundant</span><br></div><div dir=3D"au=
to"><span style=3D"font-family:sans-serif">{juHvo' jIjaH} "I go aw=
ay from the house" =3D correct</span><span style=3D"font-family:sans-s=
erif"><br></span></div><div dir=3D"auto"><span style=3D"font-family:sans-se=
rif">{</span><span style=3D"font-family:sans-serif">juHvo' vIjaH} "=
;I go away from the house" =3D awkward and maybe wrong/problematic.</s=
pan></div><div dir=3D"auto"><span style=3D"font-family:sans-serif"><br></sp=
an></div><div dir=3D"auto"><font face=3D"sans-serif">Right ?</font></div><d=
iv dir=3D"auto"><font face=3D"sans-serif"><br></font></div><div dir=3D"auto=
"><font face=3D"sans-serif">qunnoq jan puqloD</font></div><br><div class=3D=
"gmail_extra" dir=3D"auto"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On 9 Aug 2017 5:3=
7 pm, "SuStel" <<a href=3D"mailto:sustel@trimboli.name">sustel=
@trimboli.name</a>> wrote:<br type=3D"attribution"><blockquote class=3D"=
quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1=
ex">
=20
=20
=20
<div text=3D"#000000" bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF"><div class=3D"quoted-text">
<div class=3D"m_-7040878814741614706moz-cite-prefix">On 8/9/2017 10:18 =
AM, Aur=C3=A9lie
Demonchaux wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<blockquote style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid r=
gb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex" class=3D"gmail_quote">
<p style=3D"font-size:12.8px"><b>juHDaq vIjaH</b>=C2=A0is considere=
d
redundant because the object of=C2=A0<b>jaH</b>=C2=A0inherently i=
ncludes
a locative sense. Anything you=C2=A0<b>jaH</b>=C2=A0is something =
you're=C2=A0<b>jaH</b>-ing=C2=A0<i>to.</i></p>
<p style=3D"font-size:12.8px">There is no inherent "away from&=
quot;
sense to=C2=A0<b>jaH,</b>=C2=A0so=C2=A0<b>juHvo' vIjaH</b>=C2=
=A0is probably an
awkward phrase, if not downright disallowed.</p>
</blockquote>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,san=
s-serif"><span style=3D"font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.8px"><br>
</span></div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,san=
s-serif"><span style=3D"font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.8px">On t=
he
other hand, the Klingon Dictionary uses the below examples:</span=
></div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,san=
s-serif"><span style=3D"font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.8px"><br>
</span></div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default"><span style=3D"font-size:12.8px">{pa'=
;Daq
yIjaH} <Go to the room.> (section 3.3.5., p27)</span><br>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default"><span style=3D"font-size:12.8px">{pa'=
;vo'
yIjaH} <Leave the room!> (</span><span style=3D"font-size:1=
2.8px">section 3.3.5., p28)</span></div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default"><span style=3D"font-size:12.8px">{jolpa&=
#39;Daq
yIjaH} <Go to the transport room!> (section 7.1, p73)</span=
><br>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default"><span style=3D"font-size:12.8px"><br>
</span></div>
<div class=3D"gmail_default"><span style=3D"font-size:12.8px">So it
seems ok and cannon to use -Daq and -vo' suffixes along with
<jaH>.</span></div>
</blockquote>
<br>
</div><p>I didn't say it wasn't. Specifically, I said that a <b=
>-vo'</b>
noun <i>as the object of</i> <b>jaH</b> might not work (and only
might). I didn't say anything about a <b>-vo'</b> noun that i=
sn't
the object of <b>jaH.</b> In the TKD example above, you can't
tell whether <b>pa'vo' yIjaH</b> has <b>pa'vo'</b> as=
the object
of <b>jaH</b> or as a syntactic noun at the beginning.</p>
<p>Also, Okrand has revised his use of <b>-Daq</b> a little since
TKD came out. For instance, in PK (before the <i>HolQeD </i>article
where he talks about verbs of motion) he says <b>naDevvo' vaS'=
;a'Daq
majaHlaH'a'</b><i> can we get to the Great Hall from here?<=
/i>
According to the <i>HolQeD</i> interview, that should mean <i>can
we, in the Great Hall, go from here?</i></p>
<p>When Okrand revises the rules, I see that as invoking the
statement in TKD's introduction that warns that the grammar is
only a poorly understood sketch.</p>
<p>So the validity of those examples in TKD to verify this point
must be considered suspect.<font color=3D"#888888"><br>
</font></p><font color=3D"#888888">
<pre class=3D"m_-7040878814741614706moz-signature" cols=3D"72">--=20
SuStel
<a class=3D"m_-7040878814741614706moz-txt-link-freetext" href=3D"http://tri=
mboli.name" target=3D"_blank">http://trimboli.name</a></pre>
</font></div>
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<br></blockquote></div><br></div></div>
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