[110402] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [tlhIngan Hol] Using object prefix with {-vo'}
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (SuStel)
Wed Aug 9 10:37:04 2017
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From: SuStel <sustel@trimboli.name>
Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2017 10:36:30 -0400
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On 8/9/2017 10:18 AM, Aurélie Demonchaux wrote:
>
> *juHDaq vIjaH* is considered redundant because the object of
> *jaH* inherently includes a locative sense. Anything you *jaH* is
> something you're *jaH*-ing /to./
>
> There is no inherent "away from" sense to *jaH,* so *juHvo'
> vIjaH* is probably an awkward phrase, if not downright disallowed.
>
>
> On the other hand, the Klingon Dictionary uses the below examples:
>
> {pa'Daq yIjaH} <Go to the room.> (section 3.3.5., p27)
> {pa'vo' yIjaH} <Leave the room!> (section 3.3.5., p28)
> {jolpa'Daq yIjaH} <Go to the transport room!> (section 7.1, p73)
>
> So it seems ok and cannon to use -Daq and -vo' suffixes along with <jaH>.
I didn't say it wasn't. Specifically, I said that a *-vo'* noun /as the
object of/ *jaH* might not work (and only might). I didn't say anything
about a *-vo'* noun that isn't the object of *jaH.* In the TKD example
above, you can't tell whether *pa'vo' yIjaH* has *pa'vo'* as the object
of *jaH* or as a syntactic noun at the beginning.
Also, Okrand has revised his use of *-Daq* a little since TKD came out.
For instance, in PK (before the /HolQeD /article where he talks about
verbs of motion) he says *naDevvo' vaS'a'Daq majaHlaH'a'*/can we get to
the Great Hall from here?/ According to the /HolQeD/ interview, that
should mean /can we, in the Great Hall, go from here?/
When Okrand revises the rules, I see that as invoking the statement in
TKD's introduction that warns that the grammar is only a poorly
understood sketch.
So the validity of those examples in TKD to verify this point must be
considered suspect.
--
SuStel
http://trimboli.name
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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 8/9/2017 10:18 AM, Aurélie
Demonchaux wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAEr0j+TVJA0V1p3DwLXkfD1MBCb6uTm+w8=ccH8k59mhTeSrhQ@mail.gmail.com">
<blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex" class="gmail_quote">
<p style="font-size:12.8px"><b>juHDaq vIjaH</b> is considered
redundant because the object of <b>jaH</b> inherently includes
a locative sense. Anything you <b>jaH</b> is something you're <b>jaH</b>-ing <i>to.</i></p>
<p style="font-size:12.8px">There is no inherent "away from"
sense to <b>jaH,</b> so <b>juHvo' vIjaH</b> is probably an
awkward phrase, if not downright disallowed.</p>
</blockquote>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><span
style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.8px"><br>
</span></div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><span
style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.8px">On the
other hand, the Klingon Dictionary uses the below examples:</span></div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><span
style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.8px"><br>
</span></div>
<div class="gmail_default"><span style="font-size:12.8px">{pa'Daq
yIjaH} <Go to the room.> (section 3.3.5., p27)</span><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default"><span style="font-size:12.8px">{pa'vo'
yIjaH} <Leave the room!> (</span><span
style="font-size:12.8px">section 3.3.5., p28)</span></div>
<div class="gmail_default"><span style="font-size:12.8px">{jolpa'Daq
yIjaH} <Go to the transport room!> (section 7.1, p73)</span><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default"><span style="font-size:12.8px"><br>
</span></div>
<div class="gmail_default"><span style="font-size:12.8px">So it
seems ok and cannon to use -Daq and -vo' suffixes along with
<jaH>.</span></div>
</blockquote>
<br>
<p>I didn't say it wasn't. Specifically, I said that a <b>-vo'</b>
noun <i>as the object of</i> <b>jaH</b> might not work (and only
might). I didn't say anything about a <b>-vo'</b> noun that isn't
the object of <b>jaH.</b> In the TKD example above, you can't
tell whether <b>pa'vo' yIjaH</b> has <b>pa'vo'</b> as the object
of <b>jaH</b> or as a syntactic noun at the beginning.</p>
<p>Also, Okrand has revised his use of <b>-Daq</b> a little since
TKD came out. For instance, in PK (before the <i>HolQeD </i>article
where he talks about verbs of motion) he says <b>naDevvo' vaS'a'Daq
majaHlaH'a'</b><i> can we get to the Great Hall from here?</i>
According to the <i>HolQeD</i> interview, that should mean <i>can
we, in the Great Hall, go from here?</i></p>
<p>When Okrand revises the rules, I see that as invoking the
statement in TKD's introduction that warns that the grammar is
only a poorly understood sketch.</p>
<p>So the validity of those examples in TKD to verify this point
must be considered suspect.<br>
</p>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
SuStel
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://trimboli.name">http://trimboli.name</a></pre>
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