[110241] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [tlhIngan Hol] The use of 'aqroS
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (mayqel qunenoS)
Wed Aug 2 14:04:09 2017
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From: mayqel qunenoS <mihkoun@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2017 20:57:32 +0300
To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org
Reply-To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org
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oh SuStel, I'm impressed ! respect !
This has been one of the best, mind-blowing explanations, I have ever read
! Beautiful ! Absolutely amazing !
I wasn't aware that this distinction existed between possessive-genitive
case. Even the {baS 'In}, I used to interpret it as "drum of metal", but I
had never actually realized that "the metal doesn't own the drum".
However let me ask you.
If someone wanted to use the genitive case (where the first noun describes
the second), would there be any limitation as to the choice of noun which
would/could occupy the first slot ?
I mean, as long as the resulting phrase makes sense, then anything goes
right ?
qunnoq
On 2 Aug 2017 8:30 pm, "SuStel" <sustel@trimboli.name> wrote:
> On 8/2/2017 1:01 PM, mayqel qunenoS wrote:
>
> We have the canon phrase {'aqroS qughDo} for "maximum cruising speed".
> (canon because it is from the bird of prey poster).
>
> The way I analyze this phrase, it is "cruising speed of maximum".
>
>
> There are two ways to interpret the noun-noun construction, genitive or
> possessive. Possessive is a subset of genitive.
>
> You already understand possessive: it means the first noun owns, or holds,
> or is otherwise associated with the second noun. *HoD quS* *captain's
> chair; chair of the captain; chair owned by, held by, or otherwise
> associated with the captain.*
>
> Genitive means the first noun modifies the meaning of the second noun,
> typically by narrowing the possible types of noun you're talking about. *baS
> 'In* *metal drum:* you're not saying metal owns, holds, or is associated
> with the drum; you're narrowing down what kind of drum you mean by saying
> it's the metal kind.
>
> Possessive is a subset of genitive because a possessive noun also narrows
> the possible meanings of the second noun. Of all possible chairs, the one
> you're referring to is the one owned, held, or associated with the captain.
>
> *'aqroS qughDo* *maximum cruising speed *is an example of a genitive
> construction that is not a possessive construction. The cruising speed
> doesn't own, hold, or find itself associated with the concept of maximum.
> Instead, you're specifying what kind of cruising speed you're talking about
> by narrowing it down to maximum cruising speed.
>
> English sentences do not make this distinction clear, and Klingon almost
> doesn't distinguish at all between them. I can think of one instance where
> it does: when using pronouns with "relative area" nouns, you don't use the
> possessive suffixes; you use pronouns in a noun-noun construction: *jIH
> Dung* *area above me *instead of *DungwIj; maH 'em* *area in front of us *instead
> of *'emmaj.* Otherwise, it's unclear whether, for instance, *tlhIngan Hol*
> means *language associated with Klingons* or *language specified by its
> Klingonness.* Or if you don't know the context, one might have a bunch of
> chairs lined up, and you're asked which one is the chair some hypothetical
> captain might use. There the phrase *HoD quS* wouldn't be possessive,
> because you're not talking about a captain owning or holding or being
> associated with the chair; you're talking about narrowing down the type of
> chair.
>
> Would it be acceptable if we wrote {qughDo 'aqroS} for "the maximum of
> cruising speed" ? Would it mean the same ?
>
> *'aqroS qughDo* talks about a cruising speed: maximum cruising speed,
> instead of half cruising speed or minimum cruising speed. *qughDo 'aqroS*
> talks about a maximum: cruising speed maximum, instead of emergency speed
> maximum or thruster speed maximum.
>
> --
> SuStelhttp://trimboli.name
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> tlhIngan-Hol mailing list
> tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org
> http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
>
>
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<div dir=3D"auto">oh SuStel, I'm impressed ! respect !<div dir=3D"auto"=
><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">This has been one of the best, mind-blowing ex=
planations, I have ever read ! Beautiful ! Absolutely amazing !</div><div d=
ir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">I wasn't aware that this distin=
ction existed between possessive-genitive case. Even the {baS 'In}, I u=
sed to interpret it as "drum of metal", but I had never actually =
realized that "the metal doesn't own the drum".</div><div dir=
=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">However let me ask you.</div><div dir=
=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">If someone wanted to use the genitive=
case (where the first noun describes the second), would there be any limit=
ation as to the choice of noun which would/could occupy the first slot ?<br=
></div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">I mean, as long as the=
resulting phrase makes sense, then anything goes right ?</div><div dir=3D"=
auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">qunnoq</div></div><div class=3D"gmail_ext=
ra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On 2 Aug 2017 8:30 pm, "SuStel"=
; <<a href=3D"mailto:sustel@trimboli.name">sustel@trimboli.name</a>> =
wrote:<br type=3D"attribution"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"m=
argin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
=20
=20
=20
<div text=3D"#000000" bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF">
<div class=3D"m_-5881942960802439580moz-cite-prefix">On 8/2/2017 1:01 P=
M, mayqel qunenoS
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">We
have the canon phrase {'aqroS qughDo} for "maximum cruising
speed". (canon because it is from the bird of prey poster).
<div dir=3D"auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir=3D"auto">The way I analyze this phrase, it is "cruising
speed of maximum".</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
<p>There are two ways to interpret the noun-noun construction,
genitive or possessive. Possessive is a subset of genitive.</p>
<p>You already understand possessive: it means the first noun owns,
or holds, or is otherwise associated with the second noun. <b>HoD
quS</b> <i>captain's chair; chair of the captain; chair owned
by, held by, or otherwise associated with the captain.</i><br>
</p>
<p>Genitive means the first noun modifies the meaning of the second
noun, typically by narrowing the possible types of noun you're
talking about. <b>baS 'In</b> <i>metal drum:</i> you're not
saying metal owns, holds, or is associated with the drum; you're
narrowing down what kind of drum you mean by saying it's the meta=
l
kind.</p>
<p>Possessive is a subset of genitive because a possessive noun also
narrows the possible meanings of the second noun. Of all possible
chairs, the one you're referring to is the one owned, held, or
associated with the captain.</p>
<p><b>'aqroS qughDo</b> <i>maximum cruising speed </i>is an
example of a genitive construction that is not a possessive
construction. The cruising speed doesn't own, hold, or find itsel=
f
associated with the concept of maximum. Instead, you're specifyin=
g
what kind of cruising speed you're talking about by narrowing it
down to maximum cruising speed.</p>
<p>English sentences do not make this distinction clear, and Klingon
almost doesn't distinguish at all between them. I can think of on=
e
instance where it does: when using pronouns with "relative area&=
quot;
nouns, you don't use the possessive suffixes; you use pronouns in
a noun-noun construction: <b>jIH Dung</b> <i>area above me </i>instea=
d
of <b>DungwIj; maH 'em</b> <i>area in front of us </i>instead
of <b>'emmaj.</b> Otherwise, it's unclear whether, for instan=
ce,
<b>tlhIngan Hol</b> means <i>language associated with Klingons</i>
or <i>language specified by its Klingonness.</i> Or if you don't
know the context, one might have a bunch of chairs lined up, and
you're asked which one is the chair some hypothetical captain
might use. There the phrase <b>HoD quS</b> wouldn't be
possessive, because you're not talking about a captain owning or
holding or being associated with the chair; you're talking about
narrowing down the type of chair.<br>
</p>
<br>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<div dir=3D"auto">Would it be acceptable if we wrote {qughDo 'aqr=
oS}
for "the maximum of cruising speed" ? Would it mean the s=
ame ?</div>
</blockquote>
<p><b>'aqroS qughDo</b> talks about a cruising speed: maximum
cruising speed, instead of half cruising speed or minimum cruising
speed. <b>qughDo 'aqroS</b> talks about a maximum: cruising speed
maximum, instead of emergency speed maximum or thruster speed
maximum.<br>
</p>
<pre class=3D"m_-5881942960802439580moz-signature" cols=3D"72">--=20
SuStel
<a class=3D"m_-5881942960802439580moz-txt-link-freetext" href=3D"http://tri=
mboli.name" target=3D"_blank">http://trimboli.name</a></pre>
</div>
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