[110196] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [tlhIngan Hol] Experience and usage of jeS
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (SuStel)
Tue Aug 1 07:49:39 2017
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From: SuStel <sustel@trimboli.name>
Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2017 07:49:03 -0400
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On 8/1/2017 3:16 AM, mayqel qunenoS wrote:
> Jeremy Silver:
>> {SeQpIr Daleghchu'be'pu', mung tlhIngan HolDajDaq ghaH DalaDpu'pa'.}
> Since klingon vocabulary is perceived to be the literal and not
> metaphoric meaning of its word,
That's not right. Idioms often don't translate between languages, and
since Klingon is unrelated to any Earth language there's no chance that
idioms in one are also idioms in the other (unless there's borrowing).
But Klingon can employ metaphors just fine, and KGT gives us a whole
host of idioms, similes, and slang.
> I don't think that {legh} can be used
> to express "experience" as in "I experience SeQpIr". Reading this part
> of the sentence would make me understand "you haven't seen SeQpIr in
> the flesh unless..".
I agree that mixing /seeing/ Shakespeare and /reading/ Shakespeare is
inappropriate. Someone else suggested *SIQ* /endure,/ and in this case
that might be a good choice.
> The costruction {mung tlhIngan HolDajDaq} has two problems:
>
> 1. The literal translation is "at his klingon language of origin",
> which I'm not quite sure it sounds well/nice. Of course, this might be
> just a matter of personal preference. However, I would rather go with
> {tlhIngan Hol wa'DIch}. Since in Klingon monopoly we have {Quj
> wa'DIch} to refer to the original monopoly game, then I believe it
> would fit here too, quite nicely.
Actually, *mung tlhIngan Hol *means /origin Klingon,/ which does not
mean /original Klingon./ I'm not sure I know what it really means. I
wouldn't choose *tlhIngan Hol wa'DIch*/first Klingon/ for this either.
I'd employ a verb for this, something like *qonDI' tlhIngan Hol
lo'*/when he wrote it he used Klingon./
> 2. And this is the major problem. The {-Daq} can only be used to refer
> to physical locations. If you would like to use it anyway, perhaps you
> could say something like {tlhIngan wa'DIch ghItlhDaq} for "at the
> manuscript of the original klingon".
This is correct.
> Jeremy Silver:
>> {SeQpIr Daleghchu' neH, mung tlhIngan HolDajDaq ghaH DalaDDI'.}
> The problem here is that when we use {neH} on a verb, the meaning
> isn't "only". The meaning is "merely". So, the meaning here would be
> "you will merely see perfectly SeQpIr", and not "you will only see
> perfectly SeQpIr".
So when are you going to sign up for the job of Beginners' Grammarian?
--
SuStel
http://trimboli.name
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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 8/1/2017 3:16 AM, mayqel qunenoS
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CAP7F2cK1r=QEnmUON-AEjhkgW8dQBkJmrz5mTW0ENw3Z61JAbw@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<pre wrap="">Jeremy Silver:
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">{SeQpIr Daleghchu'be'pu', mung tlhIngan HolDajDaq ghaH DalaDpu'pa'.}
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
Since klingon vocabulary is perceived to be the literal and not
metaphoric meaning of its word,</pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
<p>That's not right. Idioms often don't translate between languages,
and since Klingon is unrelated to any Earth language there's no
chance that idioms in one are also idioms in the other (unless
there's borrowing). But Klingon can employ metaphors just fine,
and KGT gives us a whole host of idioms, similes, and slang.<br>
</p>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CAP7F2cK1r=QEnmUON-AEjhkgW8dQBkJmrz5mTW0ENw3Z61JAbw@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<pre wrap=""> I don't think that {legh} can be used
to express "experience" as in "I experience SeQpIr". Reading this part
of the sentence would make me understand "you haven't seen SeQpIr in
the flesh unless..".</pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
<p>I agree that mixing <i>seeing</i> Shakespeare and <i>reading</i>
Shakespeare is inappropriate. Someone else suggested <b>SIQ</b> <i>endure,</i>
and in this case that might be a good choice.<br>
</p>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CAP7F2cK1r=QEnmUON-AEjhkgW8dQBkJmrz5mTW0ENw3Z61JAbw@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<pre wrap="">The costruction {mung tlhIngan HolDajDaq} has two problems:
1. The literal translation is "at his klingon language of origin",
which I'm not quite sure it sounds well/nice. Of course, this might be
just a matter of personal preference. However, I would rather go with
{tlhIngan Hol wa'DIch}. Since in Klingon monopoly we have {Quj
wa'DIch} to refer to the original monopoly game, then I believe it
would fit here too, quite nicely.</pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
<p>Actually, <b>mung tlhIngan Hol </b>means <i>origin Klingon,</i>
which does not mean <i>original Klingon.</i> I'm not sure I know
what it really means. I wouldn't choose <b>tlhIngan Hol wa'DIch</b><i>
first Klingon</i> for this either. I'd employ a verb for this,
something like <b>qonDI' tlhIngan Hol lo'</b><i> when he wrote it
he used Klingon.</i><br>
</p>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CAP7F2cK1r=QEnmUON-AEjhkgW8dQBkJmrz5mTW0ENw3Z61JAbw@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<pre wrap="">2. And this is the major problem. The {-Daq} can only be used to refer
to physical locations. If you would like to use it anyway, perhaps you
could say something like {tlhIngan wa'DIch ghItlhDaq} for "at the
manuscript of the original klingon".</pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
<p>This is correct.<br>
</p>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CAP7F2cK1r=QEnmUON-AEjhkgW8dQBkJmrz5mTW0ENw3Z61JAbw@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<pre wrap="">Jeremy Silver:
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">{SeQpIr Daleghchu' neH, mung tlhIngan HolDajDaq ghaH DalaDDI'.}
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
The problem here is that when we use {neH} on a verb, the meaning
isn't "only". The meaning is "merely". So, the meaning here would be
"you will merely see perfectly SeQpIr", and not "you will only see
perfectly SeQpIr".
</pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
<p>So when are you going to sign up for the job of Beginners'
Grammarian?<br>
</p>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
SuStel
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://trimboli.name">http://trimboli.name</a></pre>
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