[109913] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [tlhIngan Hol] Klingon Word of the Day: 'aSya'
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (SuStel)
Thu Jul 13 13:46:11 2017
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From: SuStel <sustel@trimboli.name>
Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2017 13:45:38 -0400
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> On 13 Jul 2017 7:24 pm, "nIqolay Q" <niqolay0@gmail.com
> <mailto:niqolay0@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>
>
> On Thu, Jul 13, 2017 at 11:25 AM, mayqel qunenoS
> <mihkoun@gmail.com <mailto:mihkoun@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> > naHQun also suggested *{bIQpuH'a'} - as well as *{bIQpuH}
> > "island"
>
> Shouldn't this preferably be {bIQ puH} instead of {bIQpuH} ?
>
>
> MO tends to lean towards using noun-noun phrases rather than
> compound nouns but IIRC he's said that it's not a big deal to
> prefer one way over the other (or something to that effect, at least).
>
On 7/13/2017 12:33 PM, mayqel qunenoS wrote:
> So we can glue two nouns together ?
No. Your question is exactly why we have to be careful when telling
people that Okrand said it wasn't a big deal.
When SPEAKING, there's no difference between *bIQ puH* and *bIQpuH.*
That doesn't make the latter a genuine, single word.
Spaces are a form of punctuation.
IcouldwriteeverythinginonelongstringoflettersanditwouldbeperfectlyvalidEnglish,
but we punctuate our words with spaces to make them readable. I'm pretty
sure you agree that
"IcouldwriteeverythinginonelongstringoflettersanditwouldbeperfectlyvalidEnglish"
is not a word; it's a bunch of words without spaces between them.
What we do with our Latin-letter-based transcription system for Klingon
is show the phonemes of Klingon, not the writing system. Any punctuation
we use is up to us and for our benefit. The transcription system
represents what Klingon SOUNDS like, not how its grammar works.
When Okrand says it's no big deal whether you transcribe things like
*wa'Hu'* instead of *wa' Hu',* he's saying that it SOUNDS the same
anyway, so no big deal, don't read too much into it. He's NOT saying
that you can glue two nouns together to coin a new word.
Let's take the phrase *baS 'In* /metal drum./ Let's suppose you've
learned it as a single word, *baS'In.* Now tell me the word for a drum
that you THINK is made of metal.
If you said *baS'InHey,* that means /thing you think is a metal drum,/
not something you know is a drum but which you only think is made of metal.
If you said *baSHey'In,* okay, that means what I asked, but now you can
put suffixes in the middle of nouns? Or are you really dealing with two
words after all, and just taking away the space punctuation? Exactly
what have you accomplished by "gluing" those nouns together, then taking
them apart again long enough to shove a suffix in there? How is it any
different than just saying *baSHey 'In?* And if it's no different, why
not do us a favor and punctuate your sentences helpfully?
Related question: If you're squishing words together (and not using
slang), is a *DeSHom* an arm-bone or a minor arm?
--
SuStel
http://trimboli.name
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<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAP7F2cJCdmKorxVZOfC3O8=-Trx6sp1PtdhenwkbAuyR9O7ULg@mail.gmail.com">
<div class="gmail_extra">
<div class="gmail_quote">On 13 Jul 2017 7:24 pm, "nIqolay Q"
<<a href="mailto:niqolay0@gmail.com" moz-do-not-send="true">niqolay0@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<br type="attribution">
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr"><br>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Jul 13, 2017 at 11:25
AM, mayqel qunenoS <span dir="ltr"><<a
href="mailto:mihkoun@gmail.com" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">mihkoun@gmail.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="auto"><span>> <span
style="font-family:sans-serif;font-size:13.696px">naHQun
also suggested *{bIQpuH'a'} - as well as
*{bIQpuH}</span>
<div dir="auto"><span
style="font-family:sans-serif;font-size:13.696px">>
"island"</span></div>
<div dir="auto"><span
style="font-family:sans-serif;font-size:13.696px"><br>
</span></div>
</span>
<div dir="auto">Shouldn't this preferably be {bIQ
puH} instead of {bIQpuH} ?<br>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>MO tends to lean towards using noun-noun phrases
rather than compound nouns but IIRC he's said that
it's not a big deal to prefer one way over the other
(or something to that effect, at least).</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 7/13/2017 12:33 PM, mayqel qunenoS
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAP7F2cJCdmKorxVZOfC3O8=-Trx6sp1PtdhenwkbAuyR9O7ULg@mail.gmail.com">
<div dir="auto">So we can glue two nouns together ?</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
<p>No. Your question is exactly why we have to be careful when
telling people that Okrand said it wasn't a big deal.</p>
<p>When SPEAKING, there's no difference between <b>bIQ puH</b> and
<b>bIQpuH.</b> That doesn't make the latter a genuine, single
word.</p>
<p>Spaces are a form of punctuation.
IcouldwriteeverythinginonelongstringoflettersanditwouldbeperfectlyvalidEnglish,
but we punctuate our words with spaces to make them readable. I'm
pretty sure you agree that
"IcouldwriteeverythinginonelongstringoflettersanditwouldbeperfectlyvalidEnglish"
is not a word; it's a bunch of words without spaces between them.</p>
<p>What we do with our Latin-letter-based transcription system for
Klingon is show the phonemes of Klingon, not the writing system.
Any punctuation we use is up to us and for our benefit. The
transcription system represents what Klingon SOUNDS like, not how
its grammar works.</p>
<p>When Okrand says it's no big deal whether you transcribe things
like <b>wa'Hu'</b> instead of <b>wa' Hu',</b> he's saying that
it SOUNDS the same anyway, so no big deal, don't read too much
into it. He's NOT saying that you can glue two nouns together to
coin a new word.</p>
<p>Let's take the phrase <b>baS 'In</b> <i>metal drum.</i> Let's
suppose you've learned it as a single word, <b>baS'In.</b> Now
tell me the word for a drum that you THINK is made of metal.</p>
<p>If you said <b>baS'InHey,</b> that means <i>thing you think is
a metal drum,</i> not something you know is a drum but which you
only think is made of metal.</p>
<p>If you said <b>baSHey'In,</b> okay, that means what I asked, but
now you can put suffixes in the middle of nouns? Or are you really
dealing with two words after all, and just taking away the space
punctuation? Exactly what have you accomplished by "gluing" those
nouns together, then taking them apart again long enough to shove
a suffix in there? How is it any different than just saying <b>baSHey
'In?</b> And if it's no different, why not do us a favor and
punctuate your sentences helpfully?</p>
<p>Related question: If you're squishing words together (and not
using slang), is a <b>DeSHom</b> an arm-bone or a minor arm?<br>
</p>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
SuStel
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://trimboli.name">http://trimboli.name</a></pre>
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