[109786] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [tlhIngan Hol] qep'a' webpage
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (mayqel qunenoS)
Wed Jul 5 16:20:12 2017
X-Original-To: tlhingan-hol@lists.kli.org
In-Reply-To: <cf84f347-05ab-37a7-cc5e-577304d4acb6@trimboli.name>
From: mayqel qunenoS <mihkoun@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2017 23:19:57 +0300
To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org
Reply-To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org
Errors-To: tlhingan-hol-bounces@lists.kli.org
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SuStel:
*> jIHDaq ve'**> he travels on me*
> He's riding on my back, or something like that. The
> destination is unstated. You can tell that *jIHDaq* is not the
> object of *ve'*because the verb prefix agrees
> with *he/she/it/they/none.*
I fail to see how the {jIHDaq ve'} produces the "he travels on me".
According to the canon (or so I think) example of {bIQtIqDaq jIjaH} for "I
go in the river/I am moving along the river" (HQ 7.4, Dec 1998), whenever
we have the {-Daq} with a verb of movement, which verb of movement has a
verb prefix indicating no object, then the {-Daq} indicates the location
where the going takes place.
So, as I understand the example of {jIHDaq ve'} the meaning isn't "he
travels (with a purpose) on me"; it is rather "he is traveling with a
purpose in the vicinity of me".
qunnoq
On 5 Jul 2017 8:52 pm, "SuStel" <sustel@trimboli.name> wrote:
> On 7/5/2017 1:26 PM, David Holt wrote:
>
> ghItlh mayqel qunenoS:
>
> >> DaH qep'a' ve'meH bonablaH.
>
>
> >If the {ve'} as a verb of movement follows the same rules with {jaH}, and
> the sentence refers to a single person, then..
>
> >shouldn't this be {DaH qep'a'Daq Dave'meH bInablaH} or {DaH qep'a'
> Da'vemeH bInablaH} ?
>
>
> Since the {bo-} prefix is used on the main verb, the sentence is not
> referring to a single person. To be safe, this should be, {DaH qep'a'Daq
> bove'meH bonablaH}. The {-Daq} is actually optional and should not be a
> point of contention or argument.
>
> It's not that it's optional; it's that it's redundant. Let me use an
> example that makes it clear what is an object and what isn't (assuming
> *ve'* works like *jaH*).
>
>
> *jIH muve' *
> *he travels to me *I am his destination. *jIH* is the object of *ve'.*
>
>
> *jIHDaq ve' *
> *he travels on me *He's riding on my back, or something like that. The
> destination is unstated. You can tell that *jIHDaq* is not the object of
> *ve'* because the verb prefix agrees with *he/she/it/they/none.*
>
>
> *jIHDaq muve' *
> *he travels to at-me; he travels to me-as-location *This is grammatical;
> you're just marking *me* explicitly as a location. The verb prefix agrees
> with *jIHDaq* and shows that that's its object. But since *ve'* includes
> the notion that its object is a location, this is redundant. I have tried
> to reproduce its effect in the English translation above. The Klingon is
> more formally grammatically correct than the English.
>
> Unfortunately, the line from the movie is simply *jIve'.* We don't
> actually know whether it is a "verb of motion" or not. Since it is compared
> to *leng,* which is a verb of motion, my money is on *ve'* being one too.
>
> --
> SuStelhttp://trimboli.name
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> tlhIngan-Hol mailing list
> tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org
> http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
>
>
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<div dir=3D"auto">SuStel:<div dir=3D"auto"><b style=3D"font-family:sans-ser=
if;font-size:13.696px">> jIHDaq ve'<br></b><i style=3D"font-family:s=
ans-serif;font-size:13.696px">> he travels on me</i></div><div dir=3D"au=
to"><span style=3D"font-family:sans-serif;font-size:13.696px">> He's=
riding on my back, or something like that. The=C2=A0</span></div><div dir=
=3D"auto"><span style=3D"font-family:sans-serif;font-size:13.696px">> de=
stination is unstated. You can tell that=C2=A0</span><b style=3D"font-famil=
y:sans-serif;font-size:13.696px">jIHDaq</b><span style=3D"font-family:sans-=
serif;font-size:13.696px">=C2=A0is not the=C2=A0</span></div><div dir=3D"au=
to"><span style=3D"font-family:sans-serif;font-size:13.696px">> object o=
f=C2=A0</span><b style=3D"font-family:sans-serif;font-size:13.696px">ve'=
;</b><span style=3D"font-family:sans-serif;font-size:13.696px">because the =
verb prefix agrees=C2=A0</span></div><div dir=3D"auto"><span style=3D"font-=
family:sans-serif;font-size:13.696px">> with=C2=A0</span><i style=3D"fon=
t-family:sans-serif;font-size:13.696px">he/she/it/they/none.</i></div><div =
dir=3D"auto"><i style=3D"font-family:sans-serif;font-size:13.696px"><br></i=
></div><div dir=3D"auto"><span style=3D"font-family:sans-serif">I fail to s=
ee how the {jIHDaq ve'} produces the "he travels on me".=C2=
=A0</span><i style=3D"font-family:sans-serif;font-size:13.696px"><br></i></=
div><div dir=3D"auto"><span style=3D"font-family:sans-serif"><br></span></d=
iv><div dir=3D"auto"><span style=3D"font-family:sans-serif">According to th=
e canon (or so I think) example of {bIQtIqDaq jIjaH} for "I go in the =
river/I am moving along the river" (HQ 7.4, Dec 1998), whenever we hav=
e the {-Daq} with a verb of movement, which verb of movement has a verb pre=
fix indicating no object, then the {-Daq} indicates the location where the =
going takes place.</span></div><div dir=3D"auto"><span style=3D"font-family=
:sans-serif"><br></span></div><div dir=3D"auto"><span style=3D"font-family:=
sans-serif">So, as I understand the example of {jIHDaq ve'} the meaning=
isn't "he travels (with a purpose) on me"; it is rather &quo=
t;he is traveling with a purpose in the vicinity of me".</span></div><=
div dir=3D"auto"><span style=3D"font-family:sans-serif"><br></span></div><d=
iv dir=3D"auto"><span style=3D"font-family:sans-serif">qunnoq</span></div><=
div dir=3D"auto"><span style=3D"font-family:sans-serif"><br></span></div><d=
iv dir=3D"auto"><i style=3D"font-family:sans-serif;font-size:13.696px"><br>=
</i></div><div dir=3D"auto"><i style=3D"font-family:sans-serif;font-size:13=
.696px"><br></i></div><div dir=3D"auto"><i style=3D"font-family:sans-serif;=
font-size:13.696px"><br></i></div><div dir=3D"auto"><i style=3D"font-family=
:sans-serif;font-size:13.696px"><br></i></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_ext=
ra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On 5 Jul 2017 8:52 pm, "SuStel"=
; <<a href=3D"mailto:sustel@trimboli.name" target=3D"_blank">sustel@trim=
boli.name</a>> wrote:<br type=3D"attribution"><blockquote class=3D"gmail=
_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:=
1ex">
=20
=20
=20
<div text=3D"#000000" bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF">
<div class=3D"m_-2718200775927719260moz-cite-prefix">On 7/5/2017 1:26 P=
M, David Holt wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<p><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">ghIt=
lh mayqel qunenoS:</span></p>
<div>
<div id=3D"m_-2718200775927719260divRplyFwdMsg" dir=3D"ltr" style=
=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)">
</div>
<div>
<div dir=3D"auto">
<p style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;f=
ont-family:calibri,arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:17.12px">
<span style=3D"font-size:12pt">>> DaH qep'a' ve=
'meH
bonablaH.</span></p>
<p style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;f=
ont-family:calibri,arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:17.12px">
<span style=3D"font-size:17.12px"><br>
</span></p>
<p style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;f=
ont-family:calibri,arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:17.12px">
<span style=3D"font-size:17.12px">>If the {ve'} as a v=
erb
of movement follows the same rules with {jaH}, and the
sentence refers to a single person, then..</span></p>
<p style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;f=
ont-family:calibri,arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:17.12px">
<span style=3D"font-size:17.12px">>shouldn't this be
{DaH qep'a'Daq Dave'meH bInablaH} or {DaH qep&#=
39;a'
Da'vemeH bInablaH} ?</span><br>
</p>
<p style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;f=
ont-family:calibri,arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:17.12px">
<span style=3D"font-size:17.12px"><br>
</span></p>
<p style=3D"margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px"><font face=3D"cal=
ibri, arial, helvetica, sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:17.12px">Since=
the {bo-} prefix is
used on the main verb, the sentence is not
referring=C2=A0to a single person.=C2=A0 To be safe, this=
should
be, {DaH qep'a'Daq bove'meH bonablaH}.=C2=A0 =
The {-Daq} is
actually optional and should not be a point of
contention or argument.</span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p>It's not that it's optional; it's that it's redundan=
t. Let me use
an example that makes it clear what is an object and what isn't
(assuming <b>ve'</b> works like <b>jaH</b>).</p>
<p><b>jIH muve'<br>
</b><i>he travels to me<br>
</i>I am his destination. <b>jIH</b> is the object of <b>ve'.</b>=
<br>
</p>
<p><b>jIHDaq ve'<br>
</b><i>he travels on me<br>
</i>He's riding on my back, or something like that. The
destination is unstated. You can tell that <b>jIHDaq</b> is not
the object of <b>ve'</b> because the verb prefix agrees with <i>h=
e/she/it/they/none.</i></p>
<p><b>jIHDaq muve'<br>
</b><i>he travels to at-me; he travels to me-as-location<br>
</i>This is grammatical; you're just marking <i>me</i> explicitly
as a location. The verb prefix agrees with <b>jIHDaq</b> and
shows that that's its object. But since <b>ve'</b> includes t=
he
notion that its object is a location, this is redundant. I have
tried to reproduce its effect in the English translation above.
The Klingon is more formally grammatically correct than the
English.</p>
<p>Unfortunately, the line from the movie is simply <b>jIve'.</b>
We don't actually know whether it is a "verb of motion"=
or not.
Since it is compared to <b>leng,</b> which is a verb of motion,
my money is on <b>ve'</b> being one too.<br>
</p>
<pre class=3D"m_-2718200775927719260moz-signature" cols=3D"72">--=20
SuStel
<a class=3D"m_-2718200775927719260moz-txt-link-freetext" href=3D"http://tri=
mboli.name" target=3D"_blank">http://trimboli.name</a></pre>
</div>
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