[109673] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [tlhIngan Hol] difference between -meH and -wI' in
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (SuStel)
Thu Jun 1 12:02:45 2017
X-Original-To: tlhingan-hol@lists.kli.org
To: tlhingan-hol@lists.kli.org
From: SuStel <sustel@trimboli.name>
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2017 12:02:12 -0400
In-Reply-To: <526108c6-6042-ed8c-0e59-bb4d75bd0dc4@gmx.de>
Reply-To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org
Errors-To: tlhingan-hol-bounces@lists.kli.org
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
--===============2000851033816130616==
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
boundary="------------4CD4BDBBC6C2AE1D541955E3"
Content-Language: en-US
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
--------------4CD4BDBBC6C2AE1D541955E3
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
On 6/1/2017 4:45 AM, Lieven wrote:
> first of all, how would you linguistically call that what I am talking
> about?
In your subject, you call these things "purpose-clause compound nouns."
Strictly speaking, none of these are compound nouns, which in TKD are
individual words consisting of multiple nouns. All of your examples may
be described as noun phrases, but you can't get more specific when
describing all of them. They break down into purpose clauses and
genitive phrases.
> I have noticed that some words are translated like {pe'meH taj}
> "cutting knife", while others use -wI': {toSwI' qal'aq} "jungle gym".
>
> And then, sometimes I wondered, why -wI' and not -meH?
>
> Of course, all phrases make sense in both ways, but is there a
> difference? Why is it not {toSmeH qal'aq} "structure for climbing"?
> Why say {chevwI' tlhoy'} and not {chevmeH tlhoy'} for "territiorial
> wall"?
> "suntan lotion" is translated as {DIr QanwI' taS} - why not {DIr
> QanmeH taS}?
>
> What do you think about that?
I think it's arbitrary, and you just have to learn which way it's said.
I also think you wouldn't be particularly wrong if you said *chevmeH
tlhoy'* instead of *chevwI' tlhoy',* for example. It would be like the
difference between /border wall/ and /wall of the border:/ one is said
and the other isn't, but the other is still perfectly understandable.
> Next, I think there is also a difference between combinations where
> the meH-ed verb directly influences the noun (pe'meH taj means that
> the knife is for cutting) while other situations are just real
> noun-noun combinations (as in {nISwI' DaH} which is a "array of
> disruptors" and not a "array to disrupt").
>
> I'm just lacking the right terms to say what I think, so maybe you can
> clarify.
Genitive is a broad concept, and Klingon noun-nouns seem to embrace that
breadth. You seem to be sensing sub-types of genitive. Here's a page
that breaks down various types that appear in Latin:
<http://www.csun.edu/~hcfll004/genitive.html>. Klingon grammar treats
them all the same.
--
SuStel
http://trimboli.name
--------------4CD4BDBBC6C2AE1D541955E3
Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
<html>
<head>
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8">
</head>
<body text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 6/1/2017 4:45 AM, Lieven wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:526108c6-6042-ed8c-0e59-bb4d75bd0dc4@gmx.de">first of
all, how would you linguistically call that what I am talking
about?
<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
<p>In your subject, you call these things "purpose-clause compound
nouns." Strictly speaking, none of these are compound nouns, which
in TKD are individual words consisting of multiple nouns. All of
your examples may be described as noun phrases, but you can't get
more specific when describing all of them. They break down into
purpose clauses and genitive phrases.<br>
</p>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:526108c6-6042-ed8c-0e59-bb4d75bd0dc4@gmx.de">
I have noticed that some words are translated like {pe'meH taj}
"cutting knife", while others use -wI': {toSwI' qal'aq} "jungle
gym".
<br>
<br>
And then, sometimes I wondered, why -wI' and not -meH?
<br>
<br>
Of course, all phrases make sense in both ways, but is there a
difference? Why is it not {toSmeH qal'aq} "structure for
climbing"? Why say {chevwI' tlhoy'} and not {chevmeH tlhoy'} for
"territiorial wall"?
<br>
"suntan lotion" is translated as {DIr QanwI' taS} - why not {DIr
QanmeH taS}?
<br>
<br>
What do you think about that?
<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
<p>I think it's arbitrary, and you just have to learn which way it's
said. I also think you wouldn't be particularly wrong if you said
<b>chevmeH tlhoy'</b> instead of <b>chevwI' tlhoy',</b> for
example. It would be like the difference between <i>border wall</i>
and <i>wall of the border:</i> one is said and the other isn't,
but the other is still perfectly understandable.<br>
</p>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:526108c6-6042-ed8c-0e59-bb4d75bd0dc4@gmx.de">
Next, I think there is also a difference between combinations
where the meH-ed verb directly influences the noun (pe'meH taj
means that the knife is for cutting) while other situations are
just real noun-noun combinations (as in {nISwI' DaH} which is a
"array of disruptors" and not a "array to disrupt").
<br>
<br>
I'm just lacking the right terms to say what I think, so maybe you
can clarify.
</blockquote>
<p>Genitive is a broad concept, and Klingon noun-nouns seem to
embrace that breadth. You seem to be sensing sub-types of
genitive. Here's a page that breaks down various types that appear
in Latin: <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="http://www.csun.edu/~hcfll004/genitive.html"><http://www.csun.edu/~hcfll004/genitive.html></a>.
Klingon grammar treats them all the same.<br>
</p>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
SuStel
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://trimboli.name">http://trimboli.name</a></pre>
</body>
</html>
--------------4CD4BDBBC6C2AE1D541955E3--
--===============2000851033816130616==
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: inline
_______________________________________________
tlhIngan-Hol mailing list
tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org
http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
--===============2000851033816130616==--
