[109258] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [tlhIngan Hol] mu' chu' chabal tetlh!
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Rhona Fenwick)
Tue Mar 21 12:46:04 2017
X-Original-To: tlhingan-hol@lists.kli.org
From: Rhona Fenwick <qeslagh@hotmail.com>
To: "tlhingan-hol@kli.org" <tlhingan-hol@kli.org>
Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2017 16:45:53 +0000
In-Reply-To: <573c8cb8-2b68-38af-8be0-85e090e15e77@trimboli.name>
Reply-To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org
Errors-To: tlhingan-hol-bounces@lists.kli.org
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ghItlhpu' SuStel, jatlh:
> A kiss is not a bite. People saying chop as an equivalent to kiss drive m=
e crazy.
Though it's of course not a one-to-one equivalent, Marc was the one who fir=
st used it.
HIchop, bang.
"Give us a kiss, love." (Radio Times)
Clearly it's a rendition of the cultural meaning rather than the physical a=
ction, but it does show that Klingons probably don't kiss as a sign of roma=
ntic affection.
taH:
> I don't like hearing fan over-generalizations of what they've seen on scr=
een to
> every aspect of a Klingon's life.
Please don't assume my motivations.
taH:
> There was a great cover of HolQeD, my favorite cover, showing a Klingon m=
an
> holding a Klingon baby very close and looking down at it tenderly. Go ahe=
ad and
> tell me that no Klingon would ever do that, or that no Klingon doing that=
would
> ever press their lips to the baby.
> Or is everyone thoughtlessly equating kissing with a sexual or romantic a=
ct?
Firstly, yes, a Klingon might well press their lips to a baby - but I don't=
think a Klingon would press their lips to a baby in a regular and cultural=
ly constituted way that would justify developing a specific and dedicated v=
erb for pressing their lips to something. That's the distinction. The close=
st I'd get to agreeing with you here is that a Klingon would certainly nuzz=
le some part of their head to the baby's. And if anything, in this context =
I think a Klingon would probably press their *forehead* to the baby. We do =
know from canon that the forehead is a potent symbol of heritage and of fam=
ily for Klingons (KGT 28-29, and the curse Hab SoSlI' Quch "your mother has=
a smooth forehead" from PK), and that festive occasions are times that bri=
ng warriors to butt foreheads to show camaraderie (KGT 157-158). And have y=
ou ever seen the Inuit kunik or M=E0ori hongi, methods of greeting and show=
ing affection that are performed by pressing noses together rather than lip=
s? The assumption that the lips are a unique and universal site of expressi=
ng even non-sexual physical affection is not just a human-centric, but an e=
thnocentric one and one that, in the absence of any evidence, I don't belie=
ve we can fairly make about Klingons either.
Secondly, my discussion with naHQun was predicated on the fact that I happe=
n to know they're doing a Klingon translation of the Kama Sutra, and what I=
said was intended within that context. So *in that specific context*, yes,=
sexual, romantic, and physical were the primary topics at play, but it was=
not at all thoughtlessly and even there I certainly didn't intend that to =
be the only context within which the Klingon renditions chop, rem, and wuS =
HotmoH might be used, or indeed that any of those three were in some way in=
terchangeable. Maybe Klingons have a verb for "kiss in platonic or familial=
affection" that we don't know. But the Radio Times translation indicates t=
hat even if they do, they probably don't care for doing it in parmaq.
QeS 'utlh
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<p></p>
<p style=3D"font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif, 'Apple Colo=
r Emoji', 'Segoe UI Emoji', NotoColorEmoji, 'Segoe UI Symbol', 'Android Emo=
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ghItlhpu' SuStel, jatlh:</p>
<p style=3D"font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif, 'Apple Colo=
r Emoji', 'Segoe UI Emoji', NotoColorEmoji, 'Segoe UI Symbol', 'Android Emo=
ji', EmojiSymbols; font-size: 16px;">
> A kiss is not a bite. People saying <b>chop</b> as an equiva=
lent to <i>kiss</i> drive me crazy.</p>
<p style=3D"font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif, 'Apple Colo=
r Emoji', 'Segoe UI Emoji', NotoColorEmoji, 'Segoe UI Symbol', 'Android Emo=
ji', EmojiSymbols; font-size: 16px;">
<br>
</p>
<p style=3D"font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif, 'Apple Colo=
r Emoji', 'Segoe UI Emoji', NotoColorEmoji, 'Segoe UI Symbol', 'Android Emo=
ji', EmojiSymbols; font-size: 16px;">
Though it's of course not a one-to-one equivalent, Marc was the one who fir=
st used it.</p>
<p style=3D"font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif, 'Apple Colo=
r Emoji', 'Segoe UI Emoji', NotoColorEmoji, 'Segoe UI Symbol', 'Android Emo=
ji', EmojiSymbols; font-size: 16px;">
<br>
</p>
<p style=3D"font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif, 'Apple Colo=
r Emoji', 'Segoe UI Emoji', NotoColorEmoji, 'Segoe UI Symbol', 'Android Emo=
ji', EmojiSymbols; font-size: 16px;">
<b>HIchop, bang.</b></p>
<p style=3D"font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif, 'Apple Colo=
r Emoji', 'Segoe UI Emoji', NotoColorEmoji, 'Segoe UI Symbol', 'Android Emo=
ji', EmojiSymbols; font-size: 16px;">
"Give us a kiss, love." (<i>Radio Times</i>)</p>
<p style=3D"font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif, 'Apple Colo=
r Emoji', 'Segoe UI Emoji', NotoColorEmoji, 'Segoe UI Symbol', 'Android Emo=
ji', EmojiSymbols; font-size: 16px;">
<br>
</p>
<p style=3D"font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif, 'Apple Colo=
r Emoji', 'Segoe UI Emoji', NotoColorEmoji, 'Segoe UI Symbol', 'Android Emo=
ji', EmojiSymbols; font-size: 16px;">
Clearly it's a rendition of the cultural meaning rather than the physical a=
ction, but it does show that Klingons probably don't kiss as a si=
gn of romantic affection.</p>
<p style=3D"font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif, 'Apple Colo=
r Emoji', 'Segoe UI Emoji', NotoColorEmoji, 'Segoe UI Symbol', 'Android Emo=
ji', EmojiSymbols; font-size: 16px;">
</p>
<p style=3D"font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif, 'Apple Colo=
r Emoji', 'Segoe UI Emoji', NotoColorEmoji, 'Segoe UI Symbol', 'Android Emo=
ji', EmojiSymbols; font-size: 16px;">
</p>
<p style=3D"font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif, 'Apple Colo=
r Emoji', 'Segoe UI Emoji', NotoColorEmoji, 'Segoe UI Symbol', 'Android Emo=
ji', EmojiSymbols; font-size: 16px;">
<br>
</p>
<div>taH:</div>
<p></p>
<div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
<div>
<p>> I don't like hearing fan over-generalizations of what they've =
seen on screen to</p>
<p>> every aspect of a Klingon's life.</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>Please don't assume my motivations.</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>taH:</p>
<p>> There was a great cover of <i>HolQeD,</i> my favorite cover, s=
howing a Klingon man</p>
<p>> holding a Klingon baby very close and looking down at it tende=
rly. Go ahead and</p>
<p>> tell me that no Klingon would ever do that, or that no Klingon=
doing that would</p>
<p>> ever press their lips to the baby.</p>
<p>> Or is everyone thoughtlessly equating kissing with a sexual or=
romantic act?<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt;">Firstly, yes, a Klingon might well=
press their lips to a baby - but I don't think a Klingon would press =
their lips to a baby
</span><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt;"></span><b style=3D"font-size: 12pt;=
">in a regular and culturally constituted way that would justify devel=
oping a specific and dedicated verb for pressing their lips to somethi=
ng</b><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt;">.</span><span style=3D"font-size: 12=
pt;"> That's
the distinction</span><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt;">. The closest I'd g=
et to agreeing with you here is that a Klingon would certainly nuzzle =
some part of their head to the baby's. And i</span><span style=3D"font-size=
: 12pt;">f anything, in this context I think
a Klingon would probably press their *forehead* to the baby. We do kn=
ow from canon that the forehead is a potent symbol of heritage an=
d of family for Klingons (KGT 28-29, and the curse
</span><b style=3D"font-size: 12pt;">Hab SoSlI' Quch</b><span style=3D"font=
-size: 12pt;"> "your mother has a smooth forehead" from PK</=
span><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt;">), and that festive occasions are tim=
es that bring warriors to butt foreheads to show camaraderie =
;(KGT
157-158). And h</span><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt;">ave you ever seen t=
he </span><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt;">Inuit
<i>kunik</i></span><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt;"> or M</span><span =
style=3D"font-size: 12pt;">=E0ori
<i>hongi</i>, methods of greeting and showing affection that are perfo=
rmed by pressing noses together rather than lips? The assumption that =
the lips are a unique and universal site of expressing even non-sexual=
physical affection is not just a human-centric,
but an ethnocentric one and one that, in the absence of any=
evidence, I don't believe we can fairly make about Klingons either</s=
pan><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt;">.</span></p>
<p><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt;"><b></b></span></p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt;"></p>
<p style=3D"font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: =
16px;"><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt;">Secondly, my discussion with naHQun=
was predicated on the fact that I happen to know they're doing a Klin=
gon translation of the </span><i style=3D"font-size: 12pt;">Kama
Sutra</i><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt;">, and what I said was =
intended within that context. So *in that specific context*, yes,=
sexual, romantic, and physical were the primary topics at play, but it was=
not at all thoughtlessly and <span style=3D"font-size: 12pt;">even
there I </span><span style=3D"font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helve=
tica, sans-serif, 'Apple Color Emoji', 'Segoe UI Emoji', NotoColorEmoji, 'S=
egoe UI Symbol', 'Android Emoji', EmojiSymbols;">certainly </span><spa=
n style=3D"font-size: 12pt;">didn't intend that to
be the only context within which the Klingon renditions <b>chop</b>,&=
nbsp;<b>rem</b>, and <b>wuS HotmoH</b> might be used, or ind=
eed that any of those three were in some way interchangeable. May=
be Klingons have a verb for "kiss in platonic or familial affecti=
on"
that we don't know. But the <i>Radio Times</i> translation indic=
ates that even if they do, they probably don't care for doin=
g it in
<b>parmaq</b>.</span></span></p>
<p style=3D"font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: =
16px;"><br>
</p>
QeS 'utlh</span>
<p></p>
<p><span></span></p>
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