[109058] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [tlhIngan Hol] Rendered fat
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Ed Bailey)
Mon Feb 20 11:03:56 2017
X-Original-To: tlhingan-hol@lists.kli.org
In-Reply-To: <53e0b937-8d04-32ab-f147-eb443af6c3e8@trimboli.name>
From: Ed Bailey <bellerophon.modeler@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2017 11:03:50 -0500
To: "tlhingan-hol@kli.org" <tlhingan-hol@kli.org>
Reply-To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org
Errors-To: tlhingan-hol-bounces@lists.kli.org
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On Mon, Feb 20, 2017 at 8:30 AM, SuStel <sustel@trimboli.name> wrote:
> On 2/20/2017 12:53 AM, Ed Bailey wrote:
>
> QeS, bIQIj 'e' DaQoy DaneHmo', choquvmoH.
>
>
> *Because you want to hear that you explain...* I think you meant *jIQIj.*
>
>
bIlugh. QaghwIj QIp Datu'pu'. pIj jIDachchoH.
> vaj vuDwIj vIQIjmeH vIvum 'e' Daqotlhbej.
>
> wa'DIch jIQIjbe', pIj Sojvam ngachlu'pu'mo' 'ej Sojvam wuqlaHmo' marq
> 'oqranD neH. tagha' wuq marq 'oqranD 'e' vIjInqu', jIjatlhpu'. wuqchugh,
> ramchoH Hoch latlh vuD.
>
> jIQIjchoHpa', paghDIch mIw vIja'. taghwI' jIHtaHvIS, jIngongmeH jIngong
> vIneH. Dayaj'a'? wotDaq DIpDaq je mojaqmey vImutlh ngugh vIneH.
> naQjej rurmo' wot, ghantoH <chuH> vIlo'. vay''e' chuHlu'bogh 'oSbej
> ?chuHlu'wI' 'e' SIbI' vItlhoj.
>
>
> *vay'e' chuHlu'bogh 'oSbej *chuHlu'wI' SIbI' 'e' vItlhoj*
>
> or
>
> *SIbI' vay''e' chuHlu'bogh 'oHSbej *chuHlu'wI' 'e' vItlhoj*
>
<'e'> tlha'laH chuvmey 'e' vIQub. 'a jIQochbe', <'e'> nung chuvmey vImaS je.
>
>
> lughqu'law', 'a wa'DIch DujwIj vIvoqmo' neH. meq vIngu'laHbe'pu'.
>
>
> This is probably not a good place for *-pu'.* You're describing your
> state of mind at a particular time, not a completed event or state of mind.
> That state might be over now, but in the narrative, it isn't. It's just
> what your state was.
>
>
Guilty as charged. I was thinking of tense instead of aspect.
> vay' vIHaDnISbogh vItu'pu'. <yIvoq 'ach yI'ol>, qar'a'?
>
> cha' mojaqvam luDuDlu' 'e' tuch'a' TKD, ngugh 'e' vISIv. TKD 3.2.2
> vIlaDpu'. wotDaq <-wI'> chellu'DI', DIp moj wot 'ej mu'tlheghDaq wotvam
> tlha'bogh DIp'e' 'oS DIpvam chu' 'e' QIj TKD. vaj chuHbogh vay' 'oS chuHwI'.
> Hoch QIjbe' TKD. DIp nap chenmoH wot <-wI'> je 'e' nughojmoH TKD, 'ach
> <-wI'> latlh mojaq je ghajchugh wot, qaSbogh wanI' 'angbe' TKD. 'a qay'
> <-lu'> neH 'e' wIloylaH. ghu' le' 'oHba' wot'e' tlhejbogh <-lu'>.
>
> nItebHa' qaSlaHbe' wot, <-lu'>, <-wI'> je lutob mu'mey'e' lo'pu'bogh marq
> 'oqranD net Qub. TKD 3.2.2 qontaHvIS, ghu'vam qelbe'taH 'e' vIQub.
>
> cha' meqmo' ghu' le' 'oH wot'e' tlhejbogh <-lu'>.
>
> wot tlhejtaHvIS <-lu'>, mu'tlheghDaq wotvam tlha'laH pagh DIp. meq
> wa'DIch'e' 'oH ngoDvam'e'.
>
> wot tlha'bogh DIpvaD per vIHutlh. naQjej rurmo' wot, DIpvamvaD <chuHwI'
> DIp> vIper. wot nungbogh DIpvaD <DoS DIp> vIper.
>
> wot tlhejtaHvIS <-lu'>, moHaq pIm poQ wotvam je. meq cha'DIch 'oH
> ngoDvam'e'.
> DoS DIpvaD chuHwI' DIp DamoH rom chut.
>
>
> In English passive voice, this is true. *-lu'* is not English passive
> voice. In Klingon, when *-lu'* is added, the object remains the object.
>
This is the language used to decribe what goes on in Klingon. My point is
the construction i
>
> So'bogh DoS DIp chu' jal rom chut je,
>
>
> *The rule of accord envisions a new, hidden target noun*?
>
My language here is awkward. An example is called for. When {mulegh ghaH}
is changed to {vIleghlu'}. The rule of accord requires the prefix {vI-}, so
although semantically there is a null agent and first-person singular
patient, grammatically the rule of accord treats this situation as if there
were a first-person singular subject and third-person singular object,
although that object is merely a grammatical fiction. This is clearly a
special situation, and I have to wonder whether OVS accurately reflects how
Klingon linguists would interpret it.
>
> vaj DoS DIpvam chu'vaD <ghaH> <'oH> ghap qellaH vay' 'e' ghet moHaq le'
> DIlo'bogh.
>
>
> *lughet*
>
bIlughbej.
>
>
> 'a potlhbe', mu'tlheghDaq DI'rujDaq ghap DoS DIpqoqvam chu' tu'be'lu'mo'.
> wotvaD DoS DIp 'oHtaH nungbogh DIp'e'. moHaqvaD chuHwI' DIp mojlaw'
> nungbogh DIp. ghu'vam vIqelmeH DIvI' Hol qechmey /subject/ /object/ je,
> jImISqu'choH. 'ach vuDlIj QIjmeH /subject/ /object/ je wuv SuStel.
> rarchu'be' tlhIngan Hol, qechmeyvam je 'e' vIQub.
>
> ghu'vam le'mo', SuStel vuD vIHon. latlh meq vIghaj. 'oSlaHbe' wot'e'
> tlhejbogh <-lu'> <-wI'> je, 'eb lonlu'pu' 'ej pagh chavlu'.
>
>
> Hoch 'eb jon Hol 'e' SaHbe' Hol.
>
'a chaq SaH tlhInganpu'. 'eb tu'DI', lulo' 'e' bot nuq? lubotlaHbe'ba'
tera'ngan Holtej. 'a 'eb lulo' luneHbe' tlhIngan, SIghlaHbe' je tera'ngan
Holtej.
DaH jIyevnIS 'a jItaHqa'. SuStel, choQaHqangmo' choquvmoH. qaQeHmoHmo'
jIQoS. jItlhIj 'e' DalajlaH'a'?
~mIp'av
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quo=
te">On Mon, Feb 20, 2017 at 8:30 AM, SuStel <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=
=3D"mailto:sustel@trimboli.name" target=3D"_blank">sustel@trimboli.name</a>=
></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0=
0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
=20
=20
=20
<div bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF" text=3D"#000000"><span class=3D"">
<div class=3D"m_-4515236783446029489moz-cite-prefix">On 2/20/2017 12:53=
AM, Ed Bailey wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div>QeS, bIQIj 'e' DaQoy DaneHmo', choquvmoH.</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
</span><p><i>Because you want to hear that you explain...</i> I think y=
ou
meant <b>jIQIj.</b><br>
</p><span class=3D"">
<br></span></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>bIlugh. QaghwIj QIp D=
atu'pu'. pIj jIDachchoH. <br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote=
" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><=
div bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF" text=3D"#000000"><span class=3D"">
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div> vaj vuDwIj vIQIjmeH vIvum 'e' Daqotlhbej.<br>
<br>
</div>
<div>wa'DIch jIQIjbe', pIj Sojvam ngachlu'pu'mo'=
; 'ej Sojvam
wuqlaHmo' marq 'oqranD neH. tagha' wuq marq 'oqra=
nD 'e'
vIjInqu', jIjatlhpu'. wuqchugh, ramchoH Hoch latlh vuD.<b=
r>
</div>
<div><br>
jIQIjchoHpa', paghDIch mIw vIja'. taghwI' jIHtaHvIS,
jIngongmeH jIngong vIneH. Dayaj'a'? wotDaq DIpDaq je moja=
qmey
vImutlh ngugh vIneH.<br>
naQjej rurmo' wot, ghantoH <chuH> vIlo'. vay'&#=
39;e'
chuHlu'bogh 'oSbej ?chuHlu'wI' 'e' SIbI&#=
39; vItlhoj.</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
</span><p><b>vay'e' chuHlu'bogh 'oSbej *chuHlu'wI&#=
39; SIbI' 'e' vItlhoj</b></p>
<p>or</p>
<p><b>SIbI' vay''e' chuHlu'bogh 'oHSbej *chuHlu=
'wI' 'e' vItlhoj</b></p></div></blockquote><div><'e&=
#39;> tlha'laH chuvmey 'e' vIQub. 'a jIQochbe', <=
'e'> nung chuvmey vImaS je.<br></div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquot=
e class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc sol=
id;padding-left:1ex"><div bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF" text=3D"#000000"><p><br>
</p><span class=3D"">
<br>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div> lughqu'law', 'a wa'DIch DujwIj vIvoqmo' n=
eH. meq
vIngu'laHbe'pu'.</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
</span><p>This is probably not a good place for <b>-pu'.</b> You=
9;re
describing your state of mind at a particular time, not a
completed event or state of mind. That state might be over now,
but in the narrative, it isn't. It's just what your state was=
.<br>
</p><span class=3D"">
<br></span></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Guilty as charged. I =
was thinking of tense instead of aspect. <br></div><blockquote class=3D"gma=
il_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-lef=
t:1ex"><div bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF" text=3D"#000000"><span class=3D"">
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div> vay' vIHaDnISbogh vItu'pu'. <yIvoq 'ach yI=
'ol>,
qar'a'?<br>
<br>
</div>
<div>cha' mojaqvam luDuDlu' 'e' tuch'a' TKD=
, ngugh 'e' vISIv.
TKD 3.2.2 vIlaDpu'. wotDaq <-wI'> chellu'DI'=
;, DIp moj
wot 'ej mu'tlheghDaq wotvam tlha'bogh DIp'e' =
'oS DIpvam chu'
'e' QIj TKD. vaj chuHbogh vay' 'oS chuHwI'.<b=
r>
</div>
<div>Hoch QIjbe' TKD. DIp nap chenmoH wot <-wI'> je &=
#39;e'
nughojmoH TKD, 'ach <-wI'> latlh mojaq je ghajchugh=
wot,
qaSbogh wanI' 'angbe' TKD. 'a qay' <-lu=
9;> neH 'e'
wIloylaH. ghu' le' 'oHba' wot'e' tlhejbog=
h <-lu'>.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
nItebHa' qaSlaHbe' wot, <-lu'>, <-wI'>=
; je lutob
mu'mey'e' lo'pu'bogh marq 'oqranD net Qub=
. TKD 3.2.2
qontaHvIS, ghu'vam qelbe'taH 'e' vIQub.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
cha' meqmo' ghu' le' 'oH wot'e' tlhej=
bogh <-lu'>.<br>
<br>
wot tlhejtaHvIS <-lu'>, mu'tlheghDaq wotvam tlha=
9;laH
pagh DIp. meq wa'DIch'e' 'oH ngoDvam'e'.<=
br>
<br>
wot tlha'bogh DIpvaD per vIHutlh. naQjej rurmo' wot, DIpv=
amvaD
<chuHwI' DIp> vIper. wot nungbogh DIpvaD <DoS DIp>=
;
vIper.<br>
<br>
wot tlhejtaHvIS <-lu'>, moHaq pIm poQ wotvam je. meq
cha'DIch 'oH ngoDvam'e'.<br>
DoS DIpvaD chuHwI' DIp DamoH rom chut.</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
</span><p>In English passive voice, this is true. <b>-lu'</b> is no=
t
English passive voice. In Klingon, when <b>-lu'</b> is added, the
object remains the object.<br></p></div></blockquote><div><br></div><=
div>This is the language used to decribe what goes on in Klingon. My point =
is the construction i <br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"=
margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div bgcolor=
=3D"#FFFFFF" text=3D"#000000"><p>
</p><span class=3D"">
<br>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div> So'bogh DoS DIp chu' jal rom chut je,</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
</span><p><i>The rule of accord envisions a new, hidden target noun</i>=
?<br></p></div></blockquote><div>My language here is awkward. An example is=
called for. When {mulegh ghaH} is changed to {vIleghlu'}. The rule of =
accord requires the prefix {vI-}, so although semantically there is a null =
agent and first-person singular patient, grammatically the rule of accord t=
reats this situation as if there were a first-person singular subject and t=
hird-person singular object, although that object is merely a grammatical f=
iction. This is clearly a special situation, and I have to wonder whether O=
VS accurately reflects how Klingon linguists would interpret it.<br></div><=
blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px=
#ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF" text=3D"#000000"><p>
</p><span class=3D"">
<br>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div> vaj DoS DIpvam chu'vaD <ghaH> <'oH> ghap<=
b> </b>qellaH
vay' 'e' ghet moHaq le' DIlo'bogh.</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
</span><p><b>lughet</b></p></div></blockquote><div>bIlughbej.<br></div>=
<div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8=
ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF" te=
xt=3D"#000000"><p><br>
</p><span class=3D"">
<br>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div> 'a potlhbe', mu'tlheghDaq DI'rujDaq ghap DoS =
DIpqoqvam
chu' tu'be'lu'mo'. wotvaD DoS DIp 'oHtaH =
nungbogh DIp'e'.
moHaqvaD chuHwI' DIp mojlaw' nungbogh DIp. ghu'vam vI=
qelmeH
DIvI' Hol qechmey /subject/ /object/ je, jImISqu'choH. &#=
39;ach
vuDlIj QIjmeH /subject/ /object/ je wuv SuStel. rarchu'be'=
;
tlhIngan Hol, qechmeyvam je 'e' vIQub.<br>
<br>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div>ghu'vam le'mo', SuStel vuD vIHon. latlh meq vIghaj=
.
'oSlaHbe' wot'e' tlhejbogh <-lu'> <-=
wI'> je, 'eb
lonlu'pu' 'ej pagh chavlu'.</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
</span><p>Hoch 'eb jon Hol 'e' SaHbe' Hol.<br></p></div=
></blockquote><div>'a chaq SaH tlhInganpu'. 'eb tu'DI',=
lulo' 'e' bot nuq? lubotlaHbe'ba' tera'ngan Holtej=
. 'a 'eb lulo' luneHbe' tlhIngan, SIghlaHbe' je tera=
9;ngan Holtej.<br><br></div><div>DaH jIyevnIS 'a jItaHqa'. SuStel, =
choQaHqangmo' choquvmoH. qaQeHmoHmo' jIQoS. jItlhIj 'e' Dal=
ajlaH'a'?<br><br></div><div>~mIp'av<br></div></div></div></div>
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